youtube movies

April 27, 2007

A Protest of YouTube’s Role in Glorifying the VaTech Killer

Filed under: interesting, Video, videos, youtube — youtubemovie @ 10:33 pm

Youtube Commments:
Mine -hardly. Read my comments re suicide contagion and violent imagery. It was just a little irony. Still think that if everyone here who disagreed with the videos being shown on utube went and did something else a while, that utube might have to listen.

I can only go by your words, which convey LazyDork has motives other than wanting the videos down out of human decency. Again, if that’s how you chose to see it, so be it. On the other hand, it appears you just want to be noticed as indicated by the unnecessary use of bold letters which you have to go to the trouble to make bold. Take care and I hope things get better for ya.

in principle i see what your point is, and i mean no disrespect to anybody because of this awful tragedy. but the phrase “soul-less demon” to describe Cho Seung Hui is the kind of emotive language that exacerbates the situation. he was extremely troubled and ill, not some monster. mental illness isn’t something that needs to be demonised, it needs to be recognised.

i think timing is important in the facilitating of this discussion though… i think its easy and understandable after an event like this to want to discuss gun control, but then people are driven by emotion and its impossible to discuss more objectively.i agree it needs to be brought up, but rationally, not sensationally.

lamoos: i don’t want to discuss gun control. I want for people to see the guy until they no longer view this as sensational but as pathetic. I want every young kid to see it until even the dumbest kid realizes this guy’s machismo is all about him being lost pathetic and sick.

deleon: A judge, following the advice of a mental health pro, ordered him to undergo outpatient treatment. It was clear he was either suicidal or close to it. As far as i know, he had no actual history of violence. The problem with the “excuse” idea is that people may think someone has more control over his behaviors than he really does.

I do agree with you on some points. I haven’t watched any of the videos dealing with the killings for many of the reasons that you’ve pointed out.

However, what you’re endorsing here is censorship.😛 Which I think is wrong on a general basis. It’s a tricky subject.

Censorship is when a higher body dictates what can or cannot be broadcast. This is a protest. It’s not censorship when it’s self imposed. I would hope the vast majority of regular youtube users agree 100% with me here that these videos have no beneficial purpose whatsoever.

all i can say is if u watch his video he was obviously abused and tortued by these kids at vtech, maybe if they didnt pick on him he may have been able to control himself, im nto excusing his acts they were disgusting and not needed but i think he released those videos to let people know why he did it

rick: And therein is precisely the reason why this stuff must be seen. You are in fact recommending prejudice toward the mentally ill. Bad idea. The guy needs to be understood and his behavior examined in the light of an illness interpretation. He’s to be learned from so we can take steps to prevent further tragedies like this.

rick: Get your point, but I think mental health pro’s, teachers and parents can interpret what’s going on here in ways that may help. The take-home message is that this guy is all macho’d up because he is an extremely pathetic and extremely sick character. For the kid that’s watching, this “solution” did nothing except expose how pathetic this guy was. Kids ought to be shown this so they can recognize the signs in others, and also perhaps to see the effects of teasing and stuff on a sick person.

I agree. We need to understand the root causes of his motives. If we pussy-out and resort to reactionary hate for the misunderstood, we’ll never gain ground on preventing these types of massacres. Everyone needs to understand what causes someone to do such a thing. Saying he needs to be loathed, hated or hes just a chink does nothing to prevent this.

he was evil because he was picked on and harrassed, it was the same with columbine, those kids were picked on and it turned them evil, so instead of just labeling them evil actually find out what is causing them to be evil and stop listening to everything u hear on TV

I totally agree with your protest. It isn’t meaning to be censorship. Some people upload such stuff as tribute … as I saw today also a video about resistantx (a guy who tried to kill people of his old school in Germany – he was inspired by the massacre of Littleton and also watched these videos here …

the problem is not the video, its all the 13, 14 year olds that have watched CHO’s last video approx. 200 times, idolize him, relate to him, obsess in their dark bedrooms alone while they lick their monitors. He’d be a movie star to them. the solution to all their problems, a martyr.. There is going to be alot of inspired evil because of the video.

Cho Seung-Hui had serious mental health issues and was able to legally purchase two handguns. The videos in question demonstrate the folly of this situation quite clearly yet you would have them removed from public sight. Guns may not kill people but crazy people sure do. Perhaps if we remove the images of the crazy people we can just get on with our lives.

Exactly, hiding the root cause of his motives does nothing for prevention. How come no one posted the news clips of people from his highschool saying that they bullied him everyday and he just took it and took it and they said he was destined to explode. That type of information doesn’t glorify the killer.

Oh my God Rick. I was thinking the exact same thing. The more and more they show this guy on tv and youtube..the more its going to inspire another depressed child to commit such a crime. The amount of fame this guy is recieving is definitely going to prompt another person to do the same thing.

I’ll say to you what I said to Brookers: If he can knock LG15 off her perch, then he’s cool in my book. Sorry, but when you play with fire, you get burned. Don’t fuck with people and you won’t get shot. OTOH, Cho was an idiot for not learning how to prank people instead of shooting them.

Dehumanizing killers gives them power. It takes away their responsibility in the matter because, after all, they are monsters and monsters kill.

Understanding that Cho was a deeply flawed human moves us further to understanding and ultimately preventing these sorts of things from happening again.

Dehumanizing him and people like him sends the message that these people have no free will and there’s nothing we can do.

Youtube only cares about money. They’ll sell space to anyone – front page vid telling people to join the navy? No problem.
UFC fighting? Thanks for the cash. V Tech shooting videos … hey, it’s all ad revenue from the views.
Incestuous rabbit porn as a featured vid? Hey, buy peeps! Hunting dogs are cute!! Look at how funny they are. Fuck youtube.

You spoke the words I have been searching to express. I am a nurse in the mental health field, i have not watched any of the news clips or vids here on you tube. Somewhere out there right now there could be a distorted mind, fantisizing about killing, does You Tube really need to give his fantasy more “ammo”.
Just the thoughtsfrom a Mom of a college age son,
a high school age daughter,
and a nurse to many patients with dellusional thought disorders.

I agree with you, Ricky. By giving his videos so much attention, they’re making him into a celebrity. He himself said something about the Columbine killers and that he wanted to “inspire” others.
So kids who might want to do something like this might decide to, if they’re gonna become famous like he did.
Freedom of speech is great and all, but this is both disrespectful to the families of the VT victims and irresponsible.
It’s sad how people are getting mad at you for expressing your opinion.

Exactly not your point. You are calling for censorship. I’m saying that we need to see these images to know what we are up against. Are there people who will be “inspired” by the actions of a mass murderer; of course there are. But we cannot stop them by shoving the issue under the carpet.

My position is both defensible and vital to liberty. You are saying that imagery in the media is the cause of an act of isane violence. I would like to put the responsibility back on the shoulders of the individual who commited the act. Television did not kill those people in Virginia.

I have 2 respond 2 that: u absolutely cannot say that he would NOT have done what he did had he not seen the Columbine footage!! U just lost credibility by saying such an inane thing. What about the Columbine killers? Who did THEY see that “made them” do what they did?! It doesn’t take a genius 2 think about shooting up a school. Nor is it solely a copycat crime. Please- if u want 2 keep your point valid, don’t say such ridiculous things.

Yeah Youtube, those VA Tech shooter vids violate as least four of the TOS guidelines that aren’t suppose to be crossed:
Showing dangerous or illegal acts.
Graphic or gratuitous violence. is not allowed. YouTube is not a shock site.
But we don’t permit hate speech which contains slurs or the malicious use of stereotypes.

I agree with you 100 percent Lazydork. The VaTech killer was a person who is believed to have suffered from depression as well as bi-polar. He was not a mentally healthy person. The sad truth is that during the year that Columbine took place at least 3 other copycat school shootings happened after it. (some within months of Columbine)

I can only hope that the same thing does not happen with VaTech. I really appreciate that you have stepped up and made a video about this issue Lazydork. I hope people watch it and realize what they are doing to people by posting these VaTech videos and especially what they are doing to the victims families.

all the people on here even vaguely defending his actions are sick. “But he was picked on” I unfortunately have seen his videos. He wasn’t picked on. He was a lunatic. His video was rambling nonsense, and nobody “got what they deserved” He fuckin shot random people in a school. He had no clue who he was even shooting.

I don’t think the guy was a soul-less demon, but he had a mental illness which was severe and should of been noticed. It is good the videos helped let more people know about the tragedy, but now they really need to come down for the reasons you said.

I’m with Lazydork on this. Some things are worth censoring, and the fact is that potential copycats are gonna see his “message” and think “wow, I’m a freakin’ vigilante”. Much better off dropping the VT vids than keeping them up IMO.

But that’s just it – it’s my opinion.

“Souless demons” are creatures of the imagination. They exist only in the mind of the person enjoying the sound of his own voice or luxuriating in his own extravagant prose. “Pieces of shit” is another attempt to strip the perpetrator of his humanity in order to further vilify him. My point is that applying these terms to a psychopath like the Virginia Tech murderer makes about as much sense as shaking your fist at a comet.

This piece of shit Cho was “villified” when he pulled the trigger the first time. He was “stripped of humanity” when he turned the weapon on himself. Both acts perpetrated and carried out by him – no one since his acts.
People attempt to defend and idolize filth like this – yet demonize US troops in Iraq defending the rights of 30 million. What a backward short bus some ride through life in.

BULL SHIT! Pulling TOS violation videos like copyrighted songs is a LEGAL issue, not a moral issue. Secondly, since when is HIDING the truth a good thing? Maybe the government shouldn’t allow grisly footage from the war out of respect to those fighting? That would be great…then nobody would ever decide somethnig must be done to stop this and future wars. Yippy!

Actually, most are watching the vids are reacting with the same response that you do: “Dude was fu*ked up.” That’s what most viewers will think. A few will glorify it. But those few that do are disturbed in the first place. Merely brushing this under the carpet will not solve anything. I’m against sensationalizing. But at the same time. Access to information is important as well. Knowledge is the first step to understanding. The internet helps this move along. It’s a catch-22.

Then, your position is a world wide internet ban? Why is this sounding like a “burn books” debate? I understand your disgust. I’m all for limited access. But not an outright ban. By the way…the killer is DEAD and not here to enjoy his so-called “celebrity.” Our resistance to give him “respect” or “popularity” only addresses the victim’s families. That of the which is understandable. I know that your point isn’t about censorship. It’s more about lessening sensationalism. That part I agree with.

Literature (books), cd-roms, .mov, .wmv, cable tv. Those are media forms that carry info; violence or not. And info is what is at issue here. So, my point still stands.

Either say you are for banning internet media (that which includes violence) or don’t. At least we’ll know where you stand. And the moment you say, “ban” in the USA you will get peoples’ attention. Although, not the attention you might want.

When, you say, “arena” do you mean just the internet? Or all forms of media?

you are right..i also think this is a wrong time and place to show these videos, blame NBC whatnot..
but i can promise you people will still watch this sicko on utube and I can only hope people can tell from “reality” while these videos still run its course on utube.

Also…maybe they shouldn’t even report the incident on the news! Maybe youtube shouldn’t show people doing stupid stunts. Maybe your videos should be banned because others will get the idea to waste their lives making dumb shit like this. Maybe youtube shouldn’t be allowed to exist because it causes people to waste their time on the internet. Hey, let’s get rid of the internet so kids go out and play more! What the FUCK is wrong with you? You know what…unsubscribed.

thank goodness for your asinine sensibilities. if there are any books or cds or news outlets you want banned, please email me so i can put them on my to-do list. I thought you were only PRETENDING to be an idiot on your videos. You got me good!

you are one stupid prick!! lazydork is showing his sympathies and emotions towards the families of those victims.. although what he is asking for might seem like censoring the obscene material from cho-sung (making him seem like a prophet), Lazy dork is doing it for a good cause of humanity… *thumbs up for Lazy Dork* … crazytrainlove, next time u make an irrational comment, please stfu and Think!! very ignorant and irrational!!

Champions of “free speech” should take two seconds to review the actual text of the First Amendment.
YouTube is not Congress and is not connected to Congress, or any other government body. It has every right to “abridg[e] the freedom of speech.” They own this website. Indeed, it is THEIR First Amendment right to include or exclude whatever content they wish within the bounds of the law.

“1st amendment: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”

I wasn’t talking about the constitution. I was talking about the basic idea of youtube being a free platform for people to express themselves.
also as I am sure you realize, the “ratings” of this video is huge so thats another reason for them to keep the vids.
Sure youtube can do what they want, are you sure they would want to?

lazydork u are a true hero i think ur videos r gettin better and ur last video was very true! a lot of people asked me to move to livevideo and stuff but i refuse as i belive youtube is the feture and loads of people dont care all they want is cash

How is that comparable? The concern here is copycat, COPYCAT actions.All Ricky is asking is that Youtube pay attention and enforce their own rules for once.This is a situation where real lives could be endangered by their usual do nothing and let the money pour in attitude. I applaud him for taking a stand and hope Youtube will consider this an opportunity to examine their responsibilities along with their successes. Peace

Dear Lazydork. I dont know what to think actually. I understand what you are saying. But on the other hand, his movie shows how sick he was. I dont see any glorifying in it. I really dont. Copy cats will always be there.. youtube or not. For myself i thought it was incredibly interesting (scientifically) to see how a person like that act/thinks. I think that copy cats will come around eventhough they censor that kind of things. But maybe you´re right. Good luck!

Im sorry about my english. Its hard for me to make myself understood. What i wanted to say was that i understand your point about copy cats.. but only for my own sake it was interesting (and deeply disturbing). Oh god.. i hate english..

Deepest regards// Rob

1st amendment: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. How is CONGRESS involved?

YT is quick to delete an anime or movie due to CV, but shit like this is alowed to stay on an corrput america’s youth into another Self Made Idiotic Martyr.
Who knows, maybe next time it could be a loved one from one of the youtube staff. Then how would they feel about this vid? Do the humane thing and delete all those vids! Dont let one of YT’s best entertainers leave because of idiocy!!

One could also argue that showing a video detailing the exact method to break a person’s spirit using various torture devices might end torture on a worldwide scale. Rick is right. He meant for NBC to play that video, NBC should’ve turned the tape into the authorities and not aired it.

would you have them take it out of the newspapers too? the video off the nytimes website? there are a few videos that need to go, but i disagree. free speech and copyrighting are not synonymous. it’s not a question of who gets harmed most – and if anything it’s sorta a bit morbid that you’re crapping about the TOS issues (which all internet sites have) while on a topic like this.

signed,
a recent subscriber.

Cigarette ads aren’t allowed anywhere where children are likely to see them. This website attracts MILLIONS of kids. I haven’t seen too many 8th graders perusing the NY Times on their lunch hour, but I assure you there’s a ton of kids somewhere watching the killer right now.

so you want them to put an adult rating on them? well that’s a different issue than demanding immediate removal – i took it as your next battle was going to be having mein kampf removed from every bookstore.

this stuff was aired on the 5 o clock news, and i hope that eighth graders read a newspaper and are aware of current events – i was. you can’t shelter kids; where does it stop? a child imitated what they saw on beavis and butthead… you’re being sensationalist.

mmmm… ricky, sad day. i have to go back to writing my paper, and i grow really grow tiresome of this medium of communication (youtube message boarding). i’ll be on aim! is that like the loser’s stickam?

i hope that you succeed in your battle, and the next, and the next. i wonder what your motives are. the internet is a dangerous place. i hear thedramatube aka the psycho hurricane is for hire.:p hi triviagirl!

Thank you for posting this video. I’ve been wondering why on earth these have been put up. I would have to agree with you that freedom of speech does not extend to this person’s message to be shown on YouTube. Thanks again, LazyDork. You’re a good man!

Many people seem to disagree and claim its freedom of speech. Lets just say that your child or loved one was attending this school and you find out that they have been MURDERED in cold blood by this demon. Though 1st ammendment protects this garbage, the people posting it should have some consideration for the victims and extend their respects to the dead by not EXPLOITING this shit any further.
Act humane,not insane!!

You’re right.

Thousands of kids enter youtube expecting something funny from Smosh or perhaps webisodes from their favorite band, but instead they get handfuls of this self proclaimed shooter.

Kind of depressing.

Oh and of course kids come to this site to see the one and only, lazydork.

I’d say, take these vids off the top lists (most discussed, viewed, etc), but don’t delete them from the site entirely. That way, free speech at any cost activists can have their bottle, and the rest of us don’t have to see youtube defecate in our livingrooms.

I don’t think it should have been shown on TV either. What’s the benefit of receiving that information? How does it help anything at all? It’s playing directly into the killer’s hands. There has to be some responsibility in broadcasting. It’s just gone too far.

oh rachel… the point here, and please correct me if i am wrong lazydork, is that these videos are not news, they are damaging to our culture and ultimately perpetuate the thoughts and actions of the deranged. ask yourself whether this man would have done this if he had not been exposed to the coverage of columbine.

i’m in junior high and i think wat u said is absolutely true…kids at my school are seduced into doing all different kinds of things from wat they show on the internet…and i think that we should show respect to the families that had lost family members at Virginia tech and get rid of those vids!

damn right! a lot of kids are influenced by the internet, and we shouldent let this killers crap be broadcasted on the internet! i vote with lazydork, TAKE DOWN ALL THE VIDS OF THE KILLER! By playing and watching these vids we are doing exactly what the killer wanted us to do. lets not remember HIM, but lets remember the people that died!

And then this package that NBC got and quickly spread through the world like cho’s bullets. Obviously this is what the dude wanted. He wanted the attention. He even says that he wants to inspire others and they play that SHITE! I can’t even believe it. I work at a school and we get the newspaper for classrooms and on the cover was that picture of Cho with his arms outstretched with guns pointed right at the reader…my students. Sickening. I support you, Ricky.

So, what do you offer as an alternative? A vacuum? That’s exactly what happens every single time… one of the kids who get laughed at goes on a rampage (it sometimes includes a degree of mental illness), a “gun/videogames debate” follows and then everyone stops speaking about it altogether. Meanwhile, the people you now see making videos about it on YT stay overlooked, excluded and less-than-human attitude towards them continues until another incident happens.

Mr. Stern, what you have here and now is an opportunity to rethink the way “hidden” school violence is handled and also to show the path of reason to the kids who now see a slaughter as the only solution to their problem.

Whatever you decide to do.. do NOT create another vacuum for your loathed irrationality to strive onward.

Youre thinking about it as a human being. YouTube is a company, they think about it as a company. That means money is the bottom line. And getting in trouble for copy right violations costs more money than encouraging retards to go on shotting sprees.

cough, so what about that 2 hour delay? failure to inform the students of a killer on campus in a timely fashion? my school has sent out an email to explain that they have a policy to immediately inform the students and to shut down the campus in such an event. discuss.

I would love if youtube did delete these videos, but somehow I doubt that it would really help. The Cho Seung-Hiu videos are all over the web now, so it’s probably too late to hide them from anybody. I guess that google and yahoo could make a difference by deleting all Cho Seung-Hui entries from their search engine archives, but that would be problematic in some other ways.

I often do not agree with you, but the points you have made (especially about impressionable ears) are beyond argument.

Come on YouTube, get your company some good press by doing the right thing and remove those vids, asap. Just because NBC opted for $ over integrity, it doesn’t mean that you have to follow their lead.

Actually I am also worried about free speech on the internet. Suppose that it became political correct for search engines to hide videos like Cho’s or videos from terrorist organisations. Next step could be nonviolent political organisations. Perhaps I am paranoid, but search engine censorship scares me far more than school killings. (This was not an argument against Ricky’s protest. I am sorry about being disrepectful)

Freedom of speech means that you are allowed to set up a private website with your own videos, but it doesn’t give youtube an obligation to publish your videos. If you compare with a newspaper they don’t publish all letters to the editor. That is not a violation of freedom of speech.

the videos you speak of are already fading off the most watched list; this issue you speak of is resolving itself without your attempt at an extraordinary moral intervention and call for censorship to protect the young ones.

you attack youtube for enforcing copyright LAW, versus your -subjective- desires, strange. i see nothing to gain here really except your popularity.

your claims are so completely sensational. what’s worse, copyright law violation or news coverage of the VA tech shootings? there are copycats out there already; impressionable minds are watching this! anyway.

they should hire you, hire you to decide what content is suitable for the world; you seem to know. i’m unsubscribing, not because i don’t support VA tech, but because your arguments and your approach is asinine.

i really enjoyed your other videos🙂 maybe i’ll subscribe again someday.

i have to admit i had a tough time choosing who to side with

i beleive in freedom of speech so at first i thought its there right, but your last point about the copyrigthed song got me, this is disrespectfull, and makes me ashamed of who could do this type of thing.

-Clay

The song comment at the end should do nothing but PROVE the hypocrisy here. Lazydork believes in censorhip only SOMETIMES…not when it involves a clear-cut legal issue but when it involves a moral one…and he’s going to be the judge of that. As soon as I learn my new editing software I’m going to do a mashup of his videos and songs and overlay them with the shooters video and see what he thinks of that.

You need to think of something more creative with YOUR software than talking about censorship on the one medium that flaunts it’s anti-censorship sensibilities and roots. ALSO…what if the person whose music you used on this video disagrees w/ your pov? No…trust me, I will do a mash up of your shit and throw it right back in your face and watch yet another stream of hypocritical diarrhea run out of you.

If there is any copycat killings (which I’m sure there’s not) it wont be from viewing something on You Tube; and anyone who believes that watching a video would cause this, are the same idiot who believed that rock music and/or video games caused violent outbreaks and killings as well.

I didn’t say movies or video games. I said “.mov” or “wmv” or “cd-roms.” As in media formats that carry information. I wasn’t just refering to what the content on that media; which can be ANYTHING. I’m still waiting for you to let us know how to BAN it.

The reason I used the “book banning” as an example is that throughout history, those that wanted to ban books felt that was was ON those books were dangerous. Thus, they burned/banned books.

Rights extend only to the living, since this guy is most defiantly dead, let us erase him from history, while forever remembering his victims.

Lazydork, maybe you should make a video commemorating all of the victims of this tragedy by celebrating all that they did with their lives. At the same time, leave any reference to him out of it.

dude, isnt this site supposed to be about allowing anyone to post whatever they want? if anything, boycott NBC News. they are the ones who showed it, YouTube is for the people by the people, so i dont see why you would remove your talen from it based on this. But i understand what you say, and i support the protest.

Subscribed.

Hopefully this discussion will educate people on the distinction between the government using censorship to abridge citizen’s rights to free speech (not an issue here), and a private entity (youtube) deciding to remove videos that publicize a murdering f**kwit.

I’d rather pay my respects and watch a video memorializing any of the victims.

As someone that lives in the VT community and is friends w/SEVERAL of people who know someone who was killed or injured, I have to agree w/Lazydork. Right now is not the time to be pointing blame or glorifying a mentally disturbed gunman, but reflecting on the life lost and the shattered lives of all those affected. It’s not news (said as a Journalism graduate), but just a way to spread a lot of pain when its not needed.

I know how you feel about the tragedy but I must say that YouTube removing the videos of Seung-Hui Cho will do nothing. I don’t condone what he did but this guy will go down in the history books like Hitler, Mussolini, and the 2 Columbine shooters. So as long as his acts and pictures are printed in newspapers and magazines, someone out there will be inspired to commit copycat acts, IMO.

no one on youtube watches the news, or reads the newspaper, or what? this guy is well-known because he just committed the worst shooting, not because of youtube. people watch the news clips because they want to understand why this happened; they want to understand the motives. do you have no faith in humanity? did you think that folks sat around laughing watching people jump from the twin towers on 9/11 on the news? i don’t get this.

Seriously, it’s not as if 9/11 clips weren’t all over the place when it happened. I remember days and days where almost every station would have 9/11 footage. Granted- it was a terrible event, but I hated having it shoved in my face. At least on YouTube I can choose not to watch certain things.

that was mean of me, you have a nice face! i’d do you. see now trivia girl is going to be mad at me and she hasn’t done anything. sorry trivia girl. i’m celibate don’t worry.

do you want me to download stickam and make your chat room exciting with proposals for depraved acts of waxing?

Wow L-dizzle.. looks like you opened up a whole can of worms here. I totally agree with what you’re saying but a lot of people feel compelled to watch crap like that. It’s comparable to when there is a really bad accident and traffic going by it almost comes to a halt from the gawkers. Goodluck on your fight though

I don’t agree with half of what you said; but, I don’t think any of that little a-hole’s videos should have been released just because it’s wrong to give him this type of recognition.

And for those of you that think we are going to “learn” from watching his vidoes–you must be joking. We should learn the warning signs and be aware of this potential, but we aren’t going to learn something from watching him make a final rant.

This is a very interesting topic. I can see very clearly why these videos should be taken down, and I also see a bit of reason why they shouldn’t be. The family members of those who were involved are more then likely in such great mourning that every day they probably don’t feel safe even turning on the TV anymore knowing that something about it may come on.

As for “Copy Cat” killers, I don’t know much about that so I won’t talk about it. On another level, I can see a reason that they should be left up, or at least one of them. It’s history, whether we are proud of it or not. I find learning some parts of history very interesting.

The other day, after hearing about the VA Tech Massacre, I searched for Columbine on YouTube and learned more about it then I ever knew before. The videos about it were informative, but they also told the story in a way that was creepy that I never would have seen had I visited Wikipedia or some other informative website. I see your point Lazydork and I agree nearly 100%.

The remaining part of me that needs to be convinced is that I think that we have to learn about our history. I think that rather then completely removing the videos that they maybe should just flag all of them and remove them from the Most Viewed, Discussed, etc. Also, if this in any way looks like I am angry or something along the lines of that, it’s not intended to be. I just love a good debate. I like your cause and I’m glad to see that you are using your celebrity status on YouTube for good

From both perspective:
Broadcasting the video allows the wound of the families to be healed, indirectly showing that he has a purpose or that he was devastated with life…and wants the world to know that there are hundreds/thousands of kids like him throughout the world… Although his sense of speaking out is WRONG and IMMORAL, it needs to be addressed and clarified that he is NOT someone who randomly shoots people bc he Finds joy out of it!!

On the other hand, I totally agree with u… it is disrespectful to families and the Victims they are the subject of being unjust to… I am deeply sad that stupid shit like this have found its way to surface reality… how can 1 person (who doesn’t like his life) DESTROYS 32 other lives (who loves their lives)… I can’t find the REASONING to thaT!!!!!!! WHHYYY!!??!?!?

Humanity is defined not just by the best but the worst it can achieve in my opinion. No other creature I know of (not that I’m an expert) just kills mercilessly without reason or for pleasure (again no expert). If we deny that this sicko was human it’ll make us feel a little better but we also miss out on understanding and trying to prevent such behavior.

Well I guess we have diffrent opinions on that, and Youtube-Commentboxes wont probably be a reasonable disscusionformat for such a thing.

What youtube, or media in general, is failing to be able is the question “why” massacres and other terrible actions take place in the first place, and not how to prevent them – and if that question is awnsered it is either awnsered wrong or nobodey acts acordingly afterwards.

No lazydork is right in calling him a soulless demon think about the people who survived these incidents first hand I live in Montreal and go to Dawson and spoke face to face to people who survived the attack you think they called him a human? would you call some one a human after that person tries to kill you?

Yes, this IS real life. People who are driven by anger and loneliness to slaughter other people is real life. That is why I think that these videos should stay up. They show the people in this little imaginary YouTube world that there are real people with real serious problems in the “real” world.

lazydork, i’m with you all the way. you are a great political activist on youtube. it’s great to see you being serious after video after video of comedy. thankyou for brightening up this video at the climax. i’m now concidering a video response on my JimRagdoll account. fight the power, jim…

First of all, it is self-evident that the killer did the killings not to bring death to the victims, but to publicise his material/speech/photos etc., as he would put it “to spread my message”. The killings were only the means to that end. So, by broadcasting “his message”, we’re warranting his acts. “Good job, after all that of course we will give you what you want”.

Plato achieved “immortality”. Hitler too. Obviously, the killer understood that the second example was more feasible for him. After all, if you don’t read my comments and watch my videos, I will kill some people in my University. Then, I can be sure that they will be read and watched maaaaaany times.

I have to say I am guilty I was missed the video on the news and went staright to youtube bcuz i knew they would have it….i guess I agree but the local news floods the same video the same…I think that most of the ppl that copycat are gonna do what they want to do anyway they dont need a whole lot of inspiration. BUt i think your awesome for standing up and saying something…If the majority has ur integity we would be in a better place…Keeep it up!

I respect your opinion but have to disagree with you. I watched the videos, I felt sick inside and wished I hadn’t seen them. At the same time was glad they were shown. Someone this sick NEEDS to be seen. Cho was ignored out of fear and this is how these tragedies occur. His family was utterly blind to his condition.

(cont.) As for young people viewing the material, I agree that it might be detrimental to their mental health but if something proves so inspiring to a teen I can imagine that a violent video game or war footage would influence them just the same. Perhaps the parents of disturbed teens have watched Cho’s videos and are now examining their own children more carefully. It is unfortunate it takes a tragedy of this magnitude to (hopefully) wake us up.

If a tree falls in the woods does anyone hear it? On the day of the murders I wept, all day. Late that night I needed to know there were still good people in our world. I got onto youtube and watched your video along with some others. Good people need to be seen and heard. Don’t silence your voice.

taking down some video from youtube isn’t gonna change shit. it won’t stop anyone from picking up a weapon and doing harm to themselves or others. people have been killing and plotting since time began. if you take the va tech videos or others of similar subject matter off youtube then people will just go find them other places on the web if they feel inclined to do a search.

once the videos are out they’re out forever. there’s no stopping anyone from uploading them again. should youtube start a special task team just to search for va tech vids? waste of time if you ask me. taking the videos down doesn’t accomplish anything.

showing the videos do – do something- I can watch a millon people die in a movie? But be offended if I see it in real life? your all PC assholes. Now we know from Cho… what to look for… so another mentally ill person saw the vid and kills … Life is tough. did you cry when Friends was cancelled you lamers

JERK! Is everytime something that happens (that is completely obvious would happen) you just aren’t going to post videos? It’s our choice what to watch, and I’ll watch whatever the hell I want (and I chose not to watch any of those videos by the way.) Here in America, we have something called choice.

I’m sorry but your going to have to draw deeper into the matter, this is called free speach and you have to find a better excuse for the monster the was created on that day , look to his parents, look to the government, look to tv, and look at yourself.

I’m sorry but your going to have to draw deeper into the matter, this is called free speach and you have to find a better excuse for the monster the was created on that day , look to his parents, look to the government, look to tv, and look at yourself.

I think the fact that these videos have made their way onto youtube’s most viewed is a sign that people are interested on what the killer said and did and want to try to find some reasoning behind it. I think it’s a good thing these videos are here but I do think maybe they should be flagged so that young kids can’t see them without an adult.

I so agree with your stance, Lazydork. Good on you for saying it.

What is this thing that people have about ‘Free Speech’? Have people not noticed that these videos link the imagery and language of the traditional shooter with that of the suicide bomber. That link was made in the mind of one nutter, but thanks to the proliferation of videos, it’s working it’s way into the culture. Not good.

Whenever suicides are reported in the press in detail, the suicide rate increases – it’s known as suicide contagion in the psychological literature. Therefore responsible media don’t report suicides, or do so in a way to glorify them. What’s Cho’s tape, but a glorified suicide note – of course it will inspire more losers.

Do the right thing, Youtube. Take them down.

I somehow see your point, and I somehow agree with it. But an open community like YT can only be as good as the people who it is made up of, and since almost all parts of society are represented on YT, it is a pretty accurate mirror of people all over the world. Look at the amount of racist and fashist hate being spread via YT, that is just as inacceptable as what you are pointing out right here, yet it seems not to give YT leaders any legal bother or sleepless nights. Anything goes, it seems…

It seems you misunderstood my point a bit. I DO think that YT leaders ought to take more responsibility for what is shown and spread here. But then you would have to reinvent the whole thing from scratch, first of all discarding the anonymity which many people embrace to spread their hateful and racist propaganda. What I’m saying is that what we have here is a mirror of western civilization, wether we like it or not. If you moderate YT, it will no longer be YT. That is all I’m saying.🙂

I guess I somewhat understand what you’re saying, but definitely disagree with the last part. Being socially responsible in the form of not glorifying this killer, allowing TRIBUTES TO HIM and most likely inspiring others to seek the same fame are VASTLY more important that worrying about if moderating YouTube will make it no longer YouTube. Thankfully, I hold human life in higher regard than I do YouTube.

…So does everybody else. The release of his video allows no tribute to him. If anything, it removes any doubt of his true nature. It anyone can watch his video and feel the least amount of pitty or understanding for him, they need to be on medication.

I guess you haven’t seen the videos on here that ARE paying tribute to him and in fact have sound bites applauding as a picture of each victim is shown. I have pity for Hui, but I also hold him accountable for the problem. Hundreds of thousands of kids are made fun of, do they all respond in this manner? No. Read the comments on the Hui videos, it should shock you how the youth applaud this man’s actions. If that doesn’t concern you, I really don’t know what to say.

Yeah, I’ve seen those vids, they are truly disgusting. On the other hand: Us having this discussion is a good thing, triggered by a bad thing. Light and shadow, both are human nature. YT simply makes it visible in an unfiltered way. And sometimes, the uglyness of what we see makes us shy away. Then again, giving up on a concept like YT would be a bit like giving up believing in the fundamental goodness of humanity.

Silver, I guess my point is if the media (and that now includes YouTube) didn’t obsessively focus on situations like this, they wouldn’t occur with such regularity. If something like this weren’t made International news, why would a person set out to kill so many innocent people? Those weren’t the kids who teased him, it wasn’t revenge; he made those videos then killed 32 people for the sole purpose of becoming known. He KNEW it would make headlines, that’s WHY he created the videos.

If we stop making it headlines, stop making the killer famous and instead focus on the victims, that removes the motive for mass killings. It’s like in Los Angeles and all the high speed chases – there are so many there because once one starts, BAM it’s live and on TV, the person becomes famous. Stop putting high speed chases on TV and there won’t be so many. That’s not hard to figure out.

Michelle, I think YouTube, compared to all other internet media outlets combined, isn’t that much of a force. Sans youtube, that vid would go up by anyone who could afford a server, and with help from aggregation sites the hits would roll in.
I think NBC is the culprit here. They could have waited a month. A year.
But they’re sucking air for programming, and their news division is usually a loss leader. They must post as many serial killers as possible to satisfy stock holders.

I agree NBC was irresponsible in not waiting to release the Hui videos, they placed priority on $ in doing so, but I disagree about YouTube’s ability to influence. It’s one of the most visited websites in the world and I’d be willing to be viewed by teens/20 somethings more than they view credible sources of news – instead they take the videos glorifying Hui as a seed planted that is how you can become known when you’re feeling lost and lonley.

I don’t believe YouTube has much influence. Parents have plenty of influence. If they abdicate their influence to YouTube… then society is asking a hell of a lot from Youtube, and probably deserves the unpleasnt dose of social darwinism it will inevitably receive.
Ricky has a video up singing “kill that slovak ho.” Should he take that down? Might it influence a young man negatively, or is his wiggerisms just fine and dandy? This country is very confused.

True enough in an abstract way since, after all he is dead. So he cannot benefit from that attention. Post mortem partaking (or “watching from above”) in events concerning the life of earthly mortals is a christian construct. So if christian afterlife does exist, he must be in hell now. And the devil does not grant any peeking into the world of the living, therefore I don’t see how he could possibly benefit from any attention.

Silver, I look at it this way – Hui was going to kill himself regardless. I believe at some point he decided he would not die as he lived -unknown and forgotten, overlooked. He took 32 lives with his so the world would know his name and thanks to the media frenzy in past cases, he knew this would be the outcome.

Interesting, but it seems like you’re assuming this boy was rational. His parents said they believed he suffered from autism. Autism is like looking through binoculars backwards. An autistic’s reality is not ours.
It’s a mistake to moralize them, or assume they had petty ego-driven goals. It’s like saying your cat is “mad” at you for not changing the litter box. The cat’s not mad, even tho he pissed on your floor. His reasons are exclusive to being a cat. The same with the autistic.

He showed signs of autism; there are varying degrees of autism and since he was a college student, clearly he was not at a severe level; he was capable of realizing he wanted to die and wanted to take people with him. I have a 16 yr old family member with moderate autism, she is completely incapable of understanding the purpose of a gun, let alone comprehend the concept of suicide. It appears Hui’s light form a autism didn’t impact his ability to form and carry out such acts of violence.

I’m not well versed in mild autism, but I would guess that it would affect his ability to empathize that we take for granted. Include the anti-depressants, and the extremely dysfunctional family, and I think it makes him less of a monster, and more of a personification of unfortunate variables, culminating into a very sad tale.

Sorry, we’ll have to disagree on this matter. The two boys who committed the Columbine masacre were not austistic, they were mentally ill. Hui was diagnosed as being mentally ill. Hui even made two references to Columbine, clearly Hui knew precisely what he was doing and why, and he knew his name would be known worldwide as a result of his actions.

As for his family being “dysfuntional” being used as a cause for his mental condition, how do you explain his sister being raised in the same environment, successfully completing a degree at Princeton and working as a contractor for the State Department with nary an adverse mark on her reputation? Sometimes it really is OK to not blame everyone else, sometimes it really is OK to hold a person accountable for their own behavior.

I agree!
But Do You Think YouTube Cares??
No They Don’t!
The Users Should who Upload these videos should
Remove them, Youtube is not going to do so…
So Everyone Put This Clip On Your First Pages so
As everyone would see it and may be it will make
a change!!
Cheers!

I completely agree with you, Lazydork. All the people saying that “People need to see what he did and learn from it” apparently have way too much faith in our hormonal youth. Sure, the time before explosion/torture movies had violence and sick puppies, but by showing people how to do things like this, you’re only encouraging those who are borderline. Monkey see, monkey do.

Thanks for posting this, LazyDork. You’re awesome!

hey ricky,
kudos to you!!
i’ve always found you amusing(you’re the only reason i even WATCH youtube),
but now i find that i respect the hell outta you too. thank you for having a sensible outlook on what is indeed a tragedy, compounded by all the publicity and media.
while i hate to see that you won’t be posting for a while, i support your protest of youtube’s complacency in allowing those videos to flourish and i hope they come to their senses and remove/ban all the hype.

One more person who thinks he knows WHEN censorship is appropriate. My opinion (which isn’t worth enough to buy a cup of Starbucks, or even an empty cup for that matter) is that censorship is never appropriate, at least not for the media; self censorship is a different story. If ‘they’ are as impressionable as you declare, then it is your society’s love of indoctrinating people into BEING impressionable that is partly to blame—Hollywood, Madison Avenue, Washington D.C.

no it is disrespectful how would you feel if it were your family that suffered?would you still think it was a free site?they block offensive things for a reason. if it was so free then why don’t they just let every video be shown on youtube? (aka all the porn, etc)

I agree that YT being free of porn makes a refreshing change to the rest of the web’s semlingly primary content. But what about the huge mass of racist, fashist, religious and antisemite propaganda and hatred which is spread via YT? Is that not offensive? Surely that has got to be a lot worse than porn. All is not well with society, and it shows very much so on YT.

There’s censorship, and then there’s simple human dignity. You’re right, Lazydork. The acts of that person should NOT be glorified, and people ought to show sensitivity to the families. The fact is that most people don’t understand respect & dignity anymore, and that makes me really sad. I hope I live long enough to see the day in which those vital things return, but I’m not holding my breath. 😦

Censorship isn’t about censoring EVERYTHING. Censorship is about deciding what should be censored and what shouldn’t. If you want to make an argument why these videos need to be censored, fine. But if you ever whine about censorship again you are a hypocrite just like this self-described lazy dork.

I believe it is different – the Saddam video wasn’t at his request nor did it have the potential to inspire the hanging of former leaders. Hui’s getting what he wanted and this glorifying him could inspire another mentally ill person so seek the same fame.

although i agree it is different (i forgot the word it between is and that) it is still watching and glorifying somone kill somone else, wether it be the government, or a psycho killer

(i am not trying to start a fight or anything, only to express my point and to further see yours)

i think that they should not post anything that shows the killing of someone (other then fictitious)

I understand what you’re saying, but you asked if they are different and they are. Saddam’s video was simply morbid. Hui’s video was preplanned and sent the NBC because he wanted his name known and posters on YouTube have glorified this kid so far as to call him a hero. There are videos on here APPLAUDING what this man did. In the big picture, that carries the ability to inspire someone else to follow in his steps.

And I agree with your point about Saddam’s video. And maybe I can even understood a few Hui videos on here for informational purposes, but I’m really quite floored that YouTube has allowed videos praising Hui and have folks agreeing with him – this can only incite repeatedly incidents down the line. Great last name by the way.

Well then perhaps you should pay better attention to the conversation here. It’s not that his rant could inspire, BUT ALL THE ATTENTION HE IS RECEIVING can. Hui wanted his name known, the wanted the world to know who he was and he accomplished that. There are videos on here practically worshipping this man, applauding the deaths literally, and YouTube leaves the videos up.

Censorship = editorializing. Lazydork has whined on his videos in the past that he dislikes certain editorializing by youtube for the featured videos. NOW he wants youtube to make editorial decisions about all content?

Pathetic. Hyprocitical. Dangerous. Embarrassing.

there’s nothing wrong with it…its a horrible tragedy, yes, but i have to argue that this is a free site and if someone wants to watch them, they may. you have to remember that this site doesn’t just cater for the USA…its the whole world. some might not have CNN, MSNBC and news channels and want to know more information.

oh shut up! there are thousands of channels on YouTube. If you don’t want to watch the VTech/Cho videos, DON’T WATCH THEM. For those who do want to, it’s their right. You can’t ban videos for “glorification”… it’s too hard to define. You reactionary censor-nazi’s are fucking idiots

Virginia tech is sad yes, and I can see why people would want to pull the videos as well. I’d just like to say something to people that argue the sides of this point.
1. Please use proper grammar and punctuation, it’s hard to take you seriously if you can’t spell a single sentence right.
2.Please respect that other people have the right to have views as much as you do, don’t bash them just because you’re offended. Offer an explanation, not just a “LOL U FAG”

why anyone would want to put this stuff on ANY website is beyond me Lazydork i agree with you 100%-thank you for standing up for us concerned people-this pisses me off that people on youtube are waving this crap around like some commercial advetisement…disgusting to say the least

Alot of people are saying “This is America, we have free speech” Except YouTube is a worldwide thing. It’s ignorance like that which annoys alot of nations. (Not aimed at you)

Anyway to the point. I totally support you on this. Fine if maybe the video was on 1 channel only for those that wished to see it but as it stands it’s everywhere.

Good job.

I think you are right. There are too many kids and teenagers out there that don’t have the self esteem and the strength to not listen to this stuff. They just drink it in and think that it is so great. I mean, look how famous he is for killing all those people. I bet some kids think that’s a fantastic idea to do that. People should remember the victims because out of all the people that died there, they are the ones that matter. Not that piece of shit killer.
*JessicA*

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Only if your a doctor checking my prostate. Also, what makes you think that I’m brainwashed? Why can’t you be the brainwashed one? Just because you believe you have independent thought does not mean that you really have independent thought, does it? P.S. Posting a large middle finger three times, no matter what you believe, will invoke a rude response from me.

well I think it should be shown.. I don’t want to have things hidden from me
it was horrible and I do hate to think that it might inspire copycat shooters(I haven’t heard of any btw) but at the same time maybe it can help us understand how his mind was able to twist his image of the world so badly

These videos only make other insane monsters think they will be “famous” after death if they do the same thing. There is no deterrent for mass murderers, they kill themselves after. Maybe if they know they will never be known it may help stop it. That is their problem anyway, they think nobody likes them. They want everybody to know them. If they don’t get their “popularity” then maybe they won’t hurt and kill INNOCENT, SANE people.

yeah bitches. soft music makes everything better. leave the media and the moneymakers be and theyll go away eventually

but you fucking mess with my freedom of speech and my right to decide what I watch and I’ll fucking mess with your blood.

sorry i was feelin kinda emo yesterday🙂

but my point still stands: that kid who killed them was fucked up, stuff like that happens. now we have rednecks calling for war on korea, the media giving wrong impressions,l and do-gooders trying to block out the truth that is humanity. yeah humanity sucks, but in the end we all lose out to the fact that were all getting worked up so much about something of such little significance…

dont worry I wasnt being adult in trying to provoke you either.

he was fucked up, most if not all sane people will agree (if they have an opinion I guess) but the point is: why was he fucked up, and can this be changed.

and if it can, if it would change something, and prevent such horrible things.
500 words not enough to talk about that… and thank you for explaining ur comment

Ahh, give me a fucking break! They were just news videos. If you can’t handle that, it’s your problem. But there is nothing wrong with spreading the word. Now, the “word” will be interpreted differently by different types of people, yes, but I think most of those videos were meant to stop people from copying this shit, not support it. Even if there are those who DO support the killer, so what? It’s just one big basket of opinions that they have a right to have.

Good point rickyste! But honestly I see his video as his “deathwish” like any other people’s deathwishes, even as he was deranged by such bad experiences of his life. And yet the video discussions become rally grounds for anti-Asian sentiments…

I don’t agree the expression (or act) of hate as “free speech”, be it his words or any other’s words.

I believe what you say completely. People are trying to defend a murderer’s rights. When does a dead killer have the right to do anything but be dead? The murderer is a criminal and committed criminal acts. Honestly, wouldn’t he have forfeited his rights the very second his muscle twitched on the death device? He recorded the videos while being alive, and he wanted to be heard. If you only think about that, he would have the right to be heard, but add in the fact that he murdered several people.

You know your a cool guy got cool songs & cool video’s for the most part. However, I’m not so sure I agree with your thing of pulling stuff like this off the air. We don’t need to hide this stuff, this is the world we live in, the truth needs to be shown. It shouldn’t be overdone but it shouldn’t be hidden either. There should be some kind of balance in it all.

If this guy was really depressed, he should of took a header off a building or found help (colleges will help people get the treatment they need). He did this to be famous. Some people can’t understand this (example: crazytrainlove) and are defending this mound of shit. People like myself (and I assume Ricky) want these videos gone because this amount of exposure is exactly what he wanted. That’s all.

i find the publics reaction to things quite puzzeling most days… like when britney shaved her head, seriously did she need that much media coverage? the whole VT tragedy is being upstaged so people will forget that our country is at war and more and more of our troops are dying every day… wheres the videos on that?

I am not defending any acts of murder, but whatever led him to such decision to pull the trigger just gives us so much thoughts of life to ponder.

At least he is no longer possessed by the Devil. God help us, that we are freed from all evils, and that the cycle of hatred shall be no more. Amen.

I agree, LazyDork. And its ironic that sites like Google and Yahoo suppress the voices of oppressed men and women in China both through censorship and assisting a near fascist Chinese government, yet they boldly broadcast the voice of a demon that his evil might spread. Then again, perhaps the bottomline is paramount – and for them continued traffic is more important than dignity and conscience. It would seem, greed has corrupted their souls… and we’re all a little worse off.

It had to be aired, but it went too long. Notice how quickly it dropped off though. People crave info then tune out. That’s how capitalism works too. A product (a story is a product to the media) is only around as long as there’s interest.

Remember the victims – not the killer.

If YouTube is encouraging people to do “copycat” shootings then the news is equally to blame. And after the Columbine shootings, how many copycats were there? Was YouTube to blame. People who shoot other people are to blame. If they do it it’s not because they say “hey, wow that’s sweet let me do that too”. Guns and television don’t kill people. People do. Because if I have a gun, I have enough sense to know not to go and kill someone.

Dehumanizing the mentally ill
is wrong. This is an issue “A Beautiful Mind” trys to
convey to the public: A loving father and husband gone
seethingly mad weilding a knife and threatening his wife.He recovered to win the Nobel Prize.

If you’re asking Youtube to consider censoring something that is
“too over the top (Glorification of a murderer)” that is in your right and it should be done.

I do notice the fragmented structure of posting leaves
it too difficult to debate.

Where would you draw the line? That’s not hard
to say that pedophile porn and snuff films should be
censored. We can still proceed with improving the
right to free speech without video clips of that ilk.
Should someone post a grey area topic, don’t we already
have a “flagging” process?

with all do respect, the stuffs in the public domain, if people wanna find out about it then they shouldnt b shielded from the truth.if u block all this stuff bout why things happened etc then people will not learn.atleast youtube u can have ur own personal choice to filter out wat u wanna see and dont wanna see.while i do see others point of view taken them down is also censorship, wat happened to freespeach? even he still has that right insane or not,

Perhaps NBC has blood on its hands for releasing the tape with the resulting copycat killings…
Giving voice to murderers will only inspire other celebrity psyco wannabes. Its not a matter of freedom of speech, it’s just common sense. Sadly the broadcasters rely on images to get ratings rather than covering world issues. This was tape put out, in very bad taste, and with poor judgment I feel so sorry for the families about this.

My input concerned censorship of the outright “glorification of the killer” on a site.
The general viewing of the killer’s pre-recorded video
on broadcast was the typical news machine, sometimes insensitive
(in this case grotesquely)and something the public
would want to see and hear. It victimizes the families
no doubt, but it this has become an international issue.The actual footage left no one to doubt how sick
this person had become.

It’s true NBC should’ve inquired a consent from the authorities before showing the video. However, I thought the video’s content itself only displayed how distraught Cho actually was. If a person’s reason for killing 32 people includes “your Mercedes weren’t enough?” then DAMN

lols americans trying to de-democratise themselves. ROFLMAO

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How an alienated potential copycat killer perceives
any vile event is difficult to control. If there is
any chance an attachment to the footage to show how
much pain and suffering was caused..it would be important.

I am aware it can be an ugly , twisted world in which
people may have distorted perceptions.

EDITORIAL IN THE WASHINGTON POST

[A] federal judge in Denver, ruled this month that the depositions, the thousands of other records and the basement videos in which [Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold] spelled out their sick plan [for the Columbine killings] must remain sealed for 20 years. for fear that its release might engender copycat killings. The copycats seem to be doing just fine without the information. The rest of us could benefit from seeing what the government is hiding.

LazyDork, I don’t want to hear your psychoanalysis of what Cho’s motives were and why you think we shouldn’t watch certain videos. I’d like to make up my own mind and come to my own conclusions. There are many disturbingly, pointless videos that make the ‘Most Viewed’ category that I feel shouldn’t exist, but you don’t see me calling for them to be censored. Stick to what you do best and let the viewers decide.

Althouh I am for small government, its cases like these that make you wish there was a media zar to put a halt to some of the liberal medias fascination with death and destruction. Look at the pictures of Iraq they show each day. Its disgraceful. The VTech pictures should have been stopped by the govt so the families didnt have to see thier children killed twice. Once by cho and a second by the liberal media.

compassionrepublican…
Those folks come with crackpot
dictatorships like “Bagdad Bob”did.
The Pat Tillman case is important to look at how
important it is to present his family and the public
with the truth. A propaganda effort belittles the
Constitution and hurt his family in a far greater way.

For the younger generation: It was the trust in a
professional journalist, Walter Cronkite that exposed
the ugly truth via the new media of television. It
changed the course of the war.

(sneaking in a tangent topic)Youtube IMO is such a
new form, I know there will be an eventual transformation. What happens if there is too much
computerized manipulated imagery of the news? Who
will take responsibility for ruined lives and careers?

this is obviously the biggest, most important topic regarding the shooting! this community is self-obsessed, constantly enamoured with topics conceived from its own lack of intelligence and inability to see outside the ‘youtube bubble’. lazydork = sensationalism.

As a suggestion and opinion: There seems to be no way
to stop music copyright infringement by monitoring
millions of clips. Can we at least have an unspoken
rule to pay respect to the artist? At least they might
gain from the wee bit of advertising. I say unspoken,
because Youtube will be sued (more) if they openly encouraged it.

REPLY HERE: did you watch the video of cho on youtube before you came here and fervently started to whine? are you guilty of contributed to the video’s placement on the most watched list? every one of your clicks contributed – stop assuming it is everyone else. when you talk about the disgusting nature of society, you misanthropes, include yourself! most of the posts on here assume everyone but themselves are sickos. i like to assume better about mankind. do you know what hypocrite means?

When the USA chooses to glorify TV coverage of middle eastern slaughter, with the Bullshit excuse of WMD’s. How many of you precious Americans asked for respect then?

Pffffffffff ! Pure Self centred hypocrisy. It’s a case of, (OMG our society is F*cked up! lets block it quick)
Keep on Rocking in the free world! {{People}}

Yea, when the US military killed Saddam Hussein’s kids, the military gave a big press conference talking about how their body parts exploded in various fashions. It was pretty gross.

I don’t see a big difference between this guy and the average soldier, to be honest. Every soldier thinks they’re fighting for justice and on behalf of the weak.

you know, i know the USA is a pretty fucked up country. but after a while you get the feeling that all this complaining about the “yanks” is nothing but self righteous bullshit. all countries are fucked up. take a look in the mirror. we all need work. get off your high horse.

does anyone actually get the point of this video,

because it doesn’t seem so. And when there is an

important issue like this where people died and a lot

of people just use it as an excuse to insult america,

thats sick, and im British.

Hi Ricky – I think this is a great idea – well done, may I clap u on the back. I’d just like to say my numbing at this tragedy and what may be going on with these videos. As you have probably already guessed posting video’s of that horrible day when we forgot who we are, people may be trying to make sense of what happened, and in a very tragic way trying to share the pain of a day which has been for many surreal.

interesting song selection.

dar williams is underrated and is one of the few gal singers my chauvinistic ears enjoy. the entire album this song is on is a keeper.

as far as the message of the video…yeah, i guess. i was just wondering what kind of dorks were pumping up the views of them…don’t think it’s youtube’s responsibility to control that kind of thing.

Cho is famous. You are not. You wish you had courage. Cho had courage. You talk about doing things. Cho did do things. Look in the mirror. Are you a virgin? Do you lie? Do you contribute to global warming? Do you judge? Are you truly happy by yourself? Virginia Tech is lame.

It’s a fairly safe assumption, that most if not all of the later victims were chosen pretty much indiscriminatly. He picked a room, and started shooting. One person died because he tried to protect his students. Regardless of that, nothing they could concievably have done would justify his actions, so kindly STFU and grow up.

Who cares if he was picked on at school? I was too, but I didn’t go on to kill people because of it. You can’t excuse what he did, regardless of who did what to him (I’m sure the teacher that blocked the door didn’t harass him, same goes to many of his other random victims).

All this shooting proved is that America’s switch to a liberal Congress couldn’t have come at a worse time. We need strong leadership to screen out the insane murderers from our colleges. We need a conservative congress to nip this violence in the bud before it gets out of control. Let people defend themselves and keep the lunatics out with screening before admissions accepts them. All our children are precious and we cant tolerate this slaughter on our campuses.

*Unsubscribed* Purely because FREEDOM to watch and discuss is a RIGHT; not a paranoid hypocritical reaction from people who act as though they are superior to other people and nations.

Sickness of mind is developed through experience. Close your eyes or blame it on some big fairytale God (V) Satan if you must, but dont expect the world to play that fairytale crap too.

“The fact that they are all on the most viewed over the past fews days is proof that millions of kids are watching the killer’s words, are absorbing his message”

I never heard so much bollocks in my entire life. I can’t believe you are actually suggesting that because people are taking an interest in the events and the individual at the centre of them it automatically means they will start to sympathise with him? LazyDork that is the most patronising statement I have ever seen.

To suggest that you have the intelligence to step out of this and look at the circumstance as a threat yet the viewers of Youtube are incapable of doing so because they have chosen to make serious discussion about this tragedy. Well since you clearly think you are the only one capable of rising above copycat violence I suggest you leave Youtube and condemn us lowly sheep to descend into wanton carnage. Oh saviour of the conditioned masses.

Even if all the comments here were coherent – which they’re not – they only represent less than 10% of the total views; and the total views, roughly 6,000 at this point, are a tiny fraction of the millions of people viewing the killer’s videos. Think before you write.

Besides you are singling Youtube out as the sole medium making these clips available, the only difference from the clips on here to news broadcasts is that they are viewed unaccompanied and repeatedly, which can attribute to many of the 1,000s of views you are talking about.The killers message has already been shown round the world ten times over that figure, with biased commentary over most of his speech.

I believe seeing the clips in their stark undiluted form on here speak for themselves showing how clearly Cho was driven by material motivations and the lust for some personal gratification above his tacked on message about ‘doing this for his children, and brothers and sisters’ You should give people more credit to be able to see the wrong in this.

He wasn’t a “soulless demon” he was a poor sick young man. It is horrid what happened, heartbreaking for all the victims, their friends and families. However, to mythologize any aspect of this is sicko. What prescription drugs was he taking? Why is it so easy to buy an automatic weapon. I do not understand why you are so offended by people having the pieces of information to help us frame what happened.

He may not be “so enlightened” as you think but how would you feel if you were related to a person killed, student on campus at the time, OR member of the killer’s family. Then you would not want these things to be shown. In truth you cannot decide what is best when you have not observed.

Your right but remember I’m not the one trying to decide. Absolutely I morn for the family’s of both the victim’s and the killer. I’m not trying to globalise what they might feel is a private issue, but truthfully it is a public issue, it effects everyone.

People like myself want to know why? What is going on inside his head and what can be done in the future to prevent a similar incident. The clues to that are found in the video. People watch to it understand and rationalise and learn from mistakes, no-one looks for inspiration from a madman.

I would object to the label “soulless demon.” People who are in danger of committing these acts are usually very lonely and have experienced real suffering in their lives. I agree that both youtube and the media have been very gratuitous in their airing of these videos, but I think the label of “soulless demon” isn’t reasonable.

I agree.. there are a lot of kids who are depressed and looking for a way to vent their anger. Having such easy access to the message that this kid was sending is not good and YouTube should take notice of this and do something. This kid obviously had big problems and he should have been able to get some help before it got this far, if other kids have problems like this and see his message and what he did, there will be more situations like this. We need to encourage kids to seek help.

sympathy for the shooter? talk about romantisizing a killer. You have no real clue about him and we never will no what went on in his head.
We do know he had choices..and his choice was to kill .

The victims? they chose to go to class that day..

THINK THINK THINK

I hear you rickyste. But were do you draw the line, there has been many other offensive videos like saddams hanging or other footages from middle east. Glorifaction from virtually every group and event is represented in youtube.

Cho was crazy (medically proved) and bullied, and I believe he was a victim and it’s sad that he wasn’t stopped.

It’s definitely true that this incident started more rumors, hate, and violence because it was broadcasted so much. There were rumors at my school that on friday, a kid was going to shoot some people. He threatened one kid to his face with a hit list he had created. A lot less people were there on friday, including me.

anyone who idolizes the shooter is seriously in need of help, but putting those videos here (or taking them down) wont change how crazy those people are. if their going to do something, its going to happen with or without youtube videos of the vt massacre.
as for all the people who make jokes about it, humor is a way of handling stress and grief.

Youtube allowed this videos to stay because of all the views they were bringing to the site. They choose to remove far less offensive videos for many reasons im sure but as far as Trevor Reiger goes im sure it is one or two power tripping employees. FREE TREVOR.

I AGREE. People claim that the VaTech killer’s video won’t influence other people, but they’re WRONG. Where did Hitler get most his corrupt ideas? Neitzsche! You are what you eat, and if you eat trashy ideas and beliefs, then you’ll eventually act on those trashy beliefs. So why needlessly feed the VaTech killer’s beliefs to open ears? It’s a battle in a world of ideas, and the very fact that people type comments in YouTube prove that they want to justify their own ideas with others.

this video is the height of naiveté. youtube is like any other free market. it is ruled by supply and demand. those videos made it to the top because of market forces, not some evil agenda. just because you don’t want to see something doesn’t mean it’s not worthy of being seen. you’ve found the most slippery of slopes. tread lightly.

nice try, but you never really addressed the point…the video of the guy is out there, whether you choose to acknowledge it or not, and your so called “protest” isn’t really doing much damage to the viewings of the killer video’s so your ‘boycott’ or ‘protest’ is pretty much nullified. You loose.

he wasn’t mentally ill. he was a demon. he was tortured in middle school in high school just like me and tons of other kids, but do you see us shooting up schools? no. we learned to deal with it. the shooter deserves as much condemnation as possible, however his family deserves our prayers.

i know people who have autism and they can surely make their own choices. what he did was a choice. the woman that drown her three children pleaded mental illness, too. people with mental illnesses do not do things like this, sorry. quit defending him and get your head in reality.

You know people with autism? I can’t claim the same. But what I’ve seen from documentaries and other resources is that people with autism needs support and love. The people you know had, thank God, been treated.

If they are untreated they’re hard to distinguish from a schizofren person, like 50 yrs ago, or they can be very violent in some cases. We know how Cho was treated

A “Glorification Site” that spouts the killer did
something justifiable- cut it down, censor it as you
would a “kill a pet” site. That’s a no brainer.

Censoring “ALL” footage in differing discussion sites
is a NO.

Painting the mentally ill with the same angry brush
is a No.

I read the killer’s celebrated poet teacher refused
to analyze any traits of the killer’s psycho “crap,” as she put it. It’s understandable,given she was in such close proximity to the loss of innocent lives. She went on to say she dealt with numerous troubled kids , but was bothered by the “meaness” of the killer.

I keep seeing these type of videos and I think they’re ridiculous. There will always be people who glorify killers and there will always be copycats linked to high profile caes. Youtube is simply another medium. Censorship, in any form, is still censorship.

As to continue the “Sociopathic Killer” discussion.
Ted Kacinzsky was studied and it revealed the possible
damage to his mind from an early age. For the curious:
Google: “Unabomber Early Separation”

Every bit of info may help all of us in the future.

My deepest condolences to the families of victims
and the killer’s family.

i HIGHLY disagree with what you are trying to say. It is important to know what is going on in our world and i believe it is important for anyone, be it young teen or whomever, to know what kind of people are out there. I do not see how these videos (which i have viewed many) are in any way “disrespectful” so anyone.

Thanx, Rick! I felt the same way, when NBC started playing all that crap they received from the looney. He wanted to be heard, which exactly what we should deny him. The only people that should be listening to that peek into the mind of a psychotic, should be criminal psychologists that need to learn what to watch out for in behavior patterns!

We’ll still be here waiting for you, when you come back! Peace to you & Trivia Girl!

I completely agree with you the Virginia Tech shooting videos should be taken off of youtube whether it is free speech or not this would disgrace the parents of all those who had a child killed. I am sure all he wanted was to be seen as something more than just a kid but he was so, excuse me for my language, messed up in the head that he decided it would be smarter to shoot people at the school.

This bears repeating:

“Remember that free speech only extends to the point where it will not incite people to irrational violence.”

I agree. Real freedom of speech is all about protecting people FROM violence. Not perpetuating violence by giving a serial killer publicity and inspiring others to follow his lead. Yes, there are limits to freedom of speech.

I agree why giving the time to someone stop the time to so many people with dreams let him go along with his nighmares. I don’t understand how can this kind of news be everywhere and why instead we don’t look for good news for a change lets start by changing our world we need good news, positive that can make our lifes better.

i agree

i see the point you’re trying to make, but we cant put a cap on someone just because we dont think its appropriate. if we did that where would it end? its obvious that theres an audience for it, so I say that if you dont like it, dont watch it. Youtube cant be responsible for other peoples thoughts or how they process a certain video.

It would be similar to having asked MTV to stop playing Beavis and Butthead when a child lit his sister on fire and his parents accused the show of having influenced him (I hate Beavis and Butthead) I understand that youtube allready censors some material but to censor this would be like striking Hitlers speeches from the history books. After its all said and done people take away whatever they want regardless of what the intention was.

YouTube is a business. Posting copyrighted material is illegal and will get them sued. Posting sexually explicit material will draw a bunch of pervs and will scare off the regular (i.e. more financially desirable) folks. What does posting VT footage do? Only draw everyone from all socio-economic levels to the site, while helping the site further stand for the freedom of speech. I do agree, however, that if you don’t like what YouTube does, you should boycott and not frequent the site any more.

I will not join your protest. Virginia Tech is all over the news. The media is milking this for all it is worth. Videos/pics have been shown on tv, in the newspaper. Is it really going to make a difference if YouTube bans this stuff? Anyone interested in this guy will go straight to Google where they will find the vids at a different site. Your cause is an exercise futility.

Freedom of Speech comes from basic rational concepts in John Locke’s philosophy. Yes they are in the constitution (because it dictates what the government ought to do) but that doesn’t mean that it isn’t a good thing for everyone to follow. If it is good for government, how could it be bad for us? What’s good is good. And the constitution says nothing about inciting irrational violence or rational violence or any limits on free speech at all.

Freedom of speech runs both ways. We may speak and we have the right to not watch/listen. Both are rights. To tell someone that disagrees with something to stfu or (insert juvenile response) is tantamount to saying the same to freedom of speech itself. Think before you show your ignorance people. I see both sides …shame others arent as tolerant.

I must wholeheartedly disagree. YouTube should not enforce the removal of anything offensive or stupid. The videos are not the cause. Freedom of speech is far more important than not offending, or even preventing someone providing some kind of sick fame to morons.

I agree that youtube should remove those vids. They are disgusting to have around this site. I highly doubt youtube will remove the vids because they don’t seem to care. Their thinking is: “if you don’t like, don’t watch it”. There are so many racist things on this site and nothing is done.

True, but why shouldnt Youtube stand by their “If you dont like it, dont watch it veiw” Its true you dont have to post stupid comments, but you do anyway. Why should we
let me broadcast what their feeling. I mean come on its not this site is… O wait it is, how bout you take outher ppls veiws on life a little more seriously. I do no agree with what that guy did, but until you live a lifetime in their shoes. Pls keep your dumbass comments to yourself.

no censorship. it is sad but you can’t police the world because of one asshole.this shit will die down on youtube in a few weeks like it always does, also this punk ass thought he was being a martyr,a martyr for what? kids that have no fucking clue how to live in society, kids that cant handle pressure, kids that are so fucking weak and pathetic they cant turn the other cheek.why dont you talk to the tv networks???? this asshole’s face is on every news channels for hours a day.

rickyste,
if you are speaking about suppression of freedom of speech on youtube because they own it, how about making a video about how youtube should delete the millions of hate comments and racist comments and violent comments on this website.
by the way, you try way to hard to be funny. You aren’t funny. I agree erichw23. This video was a nice attempt to get views.

Ignorance, ignorance. I watched those planes go into those buildings the day and hours it happened. I had a friend on one of them and heard the recorded message they left their loved one…you think bush did it!?!?! what ignorance. You bought into propaganda. I may not like Bush’s policies but he didnt fly them planes into those buildings and for you to say so….is disgusting

Hey Rick,

Please be aware that the one thing that makes YouTube great is that WE police the site. If enough people, complain about and tag a particular video, they’ll remove it. YouTube made that clear in their statement. It’s what makes YouTube a community. Too bad they couldn’t hold elections by regions to come up with YouTube Moderators.

All that you said has already happened on TV
All the news reporters have agreed to not show any of the footage on TV again
It is on YouTube because people want to see it
People want to know what happened
If you have a problem with that then don’t watch it. Stay off of YouTube forever. Some people would rather know that it did happen then not happen at all cause that is life.

I think that we shouldn’t pay attention to the video. We can still know what happened without having to see the terrorist himself. Yeah, that’s right everyone. That man was a TERRORIST. He was committing terror in his own country. What we need to do instead of listening to his hateful words is to try and come up with better ways to make sure that college students don’t feel lost, like a number. Everyone needs to be recognized and known. That is the true issue here.

Why don’t you take the 1st amendment, tear it to pieces, clean yourself with it, and flush it down the toilet. Because that’s what your doing to our rights as Americans. How could instead of using the ‘i’m offended’ card, you try something called tolerance. We will all progress alot faster. And who the hell is seeing this kid as a martyr? I know i’m not, and if you are…your probably one of the people who are scared others will watch the video and share your sick opinion.

This has nothing to do with his rights. He is dead, he lost his rights. Lazydork is right and obviously all news networks agree with him b/c THEY aren’t showing the videos b/c of content and to not hurt the families.

it’s “you’re” and “a lot.” Don’t preach about American rights when you haven’t even taken advantage of the most important of them all- to better yourself as a human being.

and by the way…i do sincerely sincerely believe that you are a waste of space. hmm…i guess the only thing someone as useless as you can do with there lives is draw attention to themselves. beware in time i’m sure you’ll be tossing out death threats left and right

What the hell does the copyrighted song have to do with anything?? Just because something can cause harm, doesnt mean it should be removed. Nobody is forcing you to watch this material and nobody is trying to glorify this guy. Its a simple thing, if you do not like the videos or you are affended, do not watch them. Its seems that in America people are just looking for something to complain about.

I TOTALLY AGREE! Youtube has removed many of my videos and I have no idea why (no nudity or violence) but they seem to have no problem showing violence. They also have no problem giving the shooter what he wanted, MORE FAME, so I question the morals of Youtube. I guess if they are making profit, like The world is a fucked up place. This will encourage more of the same and get worse. Who knows, it might even end up effecting a family member of someone working for Youtube one day.

I would also like to say that I think you have it all wrong. The guy was starving for attention. His “cause” was a ruse in an attempt to gain public exposure. He acted like he was trying to prove some kind of point but really wanted to provoke attention in his name. The message wasn’t as important as his need for comments. A need to be on the most discussed list. Oh wait… who am I talking about? I’m not bashing you…it’s just…we all heard “I’ll Sue Ya,” and it sucked.

rickyste>

No offense but what’s done is done. There are about 8 million other sites to get to these videos, youtube is not the be-all, end-all video site. I understand your thought process but don’t waste any more bandwidth and disk space on moot issues:/

I am a college student and live on campus; I wanted to see how stable (or un-) he appeared on camera so I simply watched it on CNN (.com). Frankly, the clips shown there demonstrated the killers demeanor and in no way do I think that a student would want attempt to replicate the incident based on his words; aside from someone already disgruntled and premeditating murder, and in such a case, we should censor anything that may give the idea of murder (movies, video games, etc.) Goodbye rights!

We need to post video in respect for those who died and their families ALONG with what this troubled man was thinking when he did this. FREEDOM OF SPEECH IS the key to life in America. Have you contacted ABC,NBC,CBS,NEW YORK TIME, SAN FRAN CHRONICLE, WASHINGTON POST and all OTHER media to protest?
I want to see these videos for myself to learn more about what happened. If it where up to you you would block my ability to see these? I understand what you are saying. Balance is the key!

YT didnt post those videos, YT’s users did, and they got them from NBC, so direct your anger there. As for posting the words of murderers, there are jihadi beheading videos here too. Its not nice but unless YT throws the 1st amendment totally out the window(its halfway out now) there is nothing that can be done.

This is news and should be posted also toldon tv you can always choose to change the channel and not play the vt shootings on YT. Stop whinning! I live in Blacksburg and I will say reporters have been a pain in the ass always getting in peoplesfaces when they are crying that is a little too much I’ll have to say.

We should also see video of the victim’s families telling how badly this has destroyed their lives…but to remove any videos from youtube (unless they obviously violate strict policy) is not in the best interest of anyone. This should always remain a podium for free speech, regardless of how painful or disgusting it is to watch. How else can we learn about human behavior…both bad and good.

Stupid, lonely, chemically inbalanced people resort to violence. It doesn’t matter where or how they get the idea to do something like the VA Tech loser, all that matters is knowing the difference between whats right and whats wrong. Either way, not posting videos for a while shouldn’t be your way of protesting. You’re only hurting the people who have been entertained by you since the milk video (the original), like me. And I didn’t watch, or post, a single VA tech video on youtube.

i think that free speech protects things that you agree with and dont agree with. some people feel those videos were offensive and possible dangerous, others feel that they have the right to post and watch videos about the shootings and shooter. it is not up to you to decide what i can and can not watch, let me decided for myself weather or not to watch and be influenced by something.

rickyste, i totally agree with you. however, we shouldn’t be pointing the fingers at youtube, but at the major broadcastings stations of the us – nbc, abc, cbs. theses stations couldn’t give a damn about the people that died. all they care about is the ratings and how much more viewers, and consequently MONEY, they’re gonna get from airing such a video.

I don’t think you need to worry about glorifying the murderer. No one in their right mind thinks that. He was a highly disturbed demonic being, whoever says otherwise is immature pricks trying to get a reaction. The problem I had with airing the materials were for the families/friends of the victims – insensitively of it all. But for someone like me, I wanted to see it, I was curious what kind of a sicko he was – this whole incident itself was horrifying anyways.

What I enjoyed was Ricky’s statement, “I will NOT post ANY videos for SOME time! As PROTEST!”
This video is about how talking the walk, and walking the talk are two completely different activities, and many people are excellent at the former, and suck at the latter.
Distusting! Filthy! and… you’ll see more great vids from lazydork next month.
YouTube is a the internets real world answer to Seinfeld.

i have a thought for you lazydork, if you think 32 is worth your protest, then why not do it for the millions getinng killed in iraq by George W Bush.
You should protest untill that little girl singing about her brother at war, is kicked of youtube.
she is making him out like a hero when he is a murderer.

APRIL 23 INTERNATIONAL CHILDREN’S DAY
23 April “National Sovereignty and Children’s Day” in Turkey is a unique event.The founder of the Turkish Republic, Mustafa Kemal Atatürk, dedicated April 23 to the children of the country to emphasize that they are the future of the new nation. It was on April 23, 1920.The importance of April 23 as a special day of children has been recognized by the international community. UNICEF decided to recognize this important day as the International Children’s Day

So you’re going to stop posting videos as a protest?
Wow, like that’s going to make a difference…

When you’ve stopped sulking over the 32 deaths, shouldn’t you be more concerned over the 16 teenage deaths a day from firearms?

Or better yet, during 9/11 3000 people lost their lives, well compare that to the Nanking Massacre where 300,000 people were killed. Or how about the American firebombing of Japanese cities in WW2 which killed 300,000 people, more than that from the Atomic bomb.

1 Comment »

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    Comment by emoboy — October 22, 2008 @ 10:51 pm


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