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April 28, 2007

The Day They Kicked God out of the Schools – Rebuttal

Filed under: interesting, Video, videos, youtube — youtubemovie @ 2:33 pm

Youtube Commments:
i just saw this one myself – glad to see you’re on top of things! what a horrible message to send. if you would have allowed prayer in school, your children would not have died. thank you for quoting that professor.. i hadn’t heard his/her comments.

You’ve totally missed the point. The moral compass that has guided this nation for 200 years has been abandoned. Ask a 78 year old if there used to be a time when they left their doors unlocked. We abandoned our moral compass, the result is the mess you now see. How many school shootings took place in the 30’s? 40’s? 50’s? 90’s? 00’s?

daytrader….. let’s use your logic….. i would say life is getting better….. how many genocides are taking place today courtesy of the nation of Israel like what was happenign 3000 years ago at the hands of the judges and kings of the New Kingdom…. not as many… consequently, humanity is better….

Wait, moral compass? You do realize that the “Founding Fathers”, in their immense Christian wisdom, were counter revolutionaries, don’t you? Their constitutional convention was, in effect, a coup d’eta. I encourage you to read the Articles of Confederation, and just see how compassionate and morally guided these men were. Christian Nation indeed.

Thank you for posting this reply. It was very calm and dignified given that the video it was a response too was so utterly shameless in its attempt to use the massacre as an opportunity to set back civil rights by several decades by talking rubbish about us saying that we’re okay with paedophiles on the internet and songs about rape.

P.S. They claim that god is everywhere and that he is just, but they do not explain why he punishes the teachers and students at Virginia Tech for a decision not to include prayers in schools, a decision made by a different group of people who have not been punished.

Well done, my friend. I’ve posted your video on my blog, hopefully quite a few people will watch this.

I can’t express how angry I felt after watching “americanfamily”‘s video. Is that type of hatred what one deems “good family values” nowadays?

I’m speechless.

Well done. I was sorely disappointed at not being able say what I thought of that appalling piece of poisonous, stupefying idiocy, but I guess I’ve now said so here.

Congratulations on putting together a sensible and worthwhile countervideo so quickly.

So, from the viewpoint of americanfamily, this happened because God has been removed from schools?

God, must have, therefore allowed himself to be removed (since he is omnipotent).

So he is directly responsible for the masacre…

God wills love. Love requires choice. Choice allows evil. Things happen in the world that aren’t God’s will. This video makes an erroneous conclusion that if we don’t allow God in the schools, God must have allowed us to not allow Him (?) in the schools. So it’s God’s fault. Utterly ridiculous. Here’s a nickel’s worth of free advice – read God’s Word for yourself rather than rely on venomous atheistic comments or videos for any information.

Since when has the word of an Aethiest led to war, death, and slaughter? Never.

The word of God? I can go on for quite some time.

So who are you to call the words of aethiests “venomous?” Also, you seem to be so blinded by your hate for non-believers that you cannot even understand the film – he is denying your God, not pointing the finger at him.

You, sir or ma’am, are a bigot, clear and simple.


THERE HAS NEVER BEEN A RELIGIOUS WAR. This is a myth. All wars have been political. This is a fact. The Crusades are the perfect example. The Bible says to “love your neighbor as yourself.” There has never been a war that began with that as it’s battlecry.

Good try, but found wanting.

So you can just justify killing and fighting because the bible says you should not? That doesn’t make sense. And it just REEKS of contradiction.

So if they bible says “love your neighbor as yourself”, that means that you can kill them for not believing it..?

And if god loves all, why doesn’t he love homosexuals?

Yes, but now you ignore facts. The Crusades were DECLARED politically, but were spurred by the Pope’s desires to reclaim the Holy Land.

Hitler, Stalin, Napoleon. Here you cite 3 examples of powerful men who killed. Now, here’s the fallacy in your logic of using them. They did not kill because others were religious, they killed for quite different purposes.

Our faith was strong in th’ Orient,
It ruled in all of Asia,
In Moorish lands and Africa.
But now for us these lands are gone
‘Twould even grieve the hardest stone….
Four sisters of our Church you find,
They’re of the patriarchic kind:
Constantinople, Alexandria,
Jerusalem, Antiochia.
But they’ve been forfeited and sacked
And soon the head will be attacked.

1. Hitler killed for RACIAL CLEANSING, not religion.

2. Stalin killed all opposed to his regime, and his people in general. RELIGION WAS NOT A FACTOR.

3. Napoleon killed to dominate the world. None of his battles were religiously spurred.

So now your attack on me is shown to be faulty. Aethiests have never been responsible for the murder of believers. Can you say the same?

Thanks for the nickle Cisco. Here’s something from your all loving god.
Num.31:17-18 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.18. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.”

Any “believer” who thinks they’ve solved the problem of Evil is delusional.

There is no reason to think any theist has the answers… if there were a God, his reasons would be beyond comprehension, since, as Leibniz duly noted, they would be the result of infinite analysis.

You thought has been refuted for 60 years. Pick up Alvin Plantinga’s The Problem of Evil. It is getting rediculous that atheism can’t read.
There is no such thing as the problem of evil! It is a myth!!!
For the theist, free will (Compatibilistically) solves this problem by making man and satan the secondary causes of evil and thereby making them the responsible party.
For the atheist, there is no such thing as evil. So to argue about topics of evil is “delusional.”

You are conflating a range of issues here. Watch the dogma video, it should straighten you out. Briefly, Hitler was not an atheist, Stalin was brought up by jesuits and put that experience to good use. In any case, nutjobs do not kill people in the “name of Atheism”, but in the name of some lunatic dogma, such as communisim, nazisim or catholicism. Dogma is the source of tyranny, religion is simply a subset.

Sorry for the delay. You Tube only let’s you make a certain amount of posts at a time.
Anybody can say that they started a war in the name of something, that doens’t mean that it is true (hasty generalization). I see your point and agree that this video is not a good argument. I was responding to some of the other posts.
About me: I am a Protestant Reformed Christian. God exists as my properly basic belief.

check your You tube website. i posted on your page. it is late here. I would love to continue this dialogue. i have an open mind that has to be shown logical truth to proceed. if you can “prove” to me that God doesn’t exist, then i would believe that. faith is not a blind leap in the dark, but a leap into the light. cheers! chad

Sorry, I’m not in the business of providing a metaphysical smokescreen to obscure the core of absurdity at the heart of your religion, if you want to chat, lets focus on that stuff first. For example the trinity. Where is the evidence? Not in the Bible, not in the natural world. So why beleive it? Or do you think God sends people to kill other people for their sins?

I watched the video ” The Day They Kicked God out of the Schools” I would like to say to that video why no comments allowed does God no longer allow free speech. First I like to say there is a reason why our forefather stated to seperate Govn’t and Church they knew that God and worship is a personal choice and so they allowed freedom of religion.

Part 2 to my comments: To allow each American to worship any God of our choice. The other video stated we should allow God in school? But I say which God only your God, so you can then take away the choice for other kids who do not see your point of view of God. Those of Muslim faith who worship Allah, or those who worship Ganesh of India faith or those who follow the teachings of Buddha. Or which Christain sect should we allow…in school…there are too many to count or list.

Part 3: Church is the place to worship and practice your faith and follow its teaching in your own personal life don’t allow what you believe to take away other persons choice of worship. Also to say God is punishing us because the way we live our life by watching movies, music, and whatever things you can think of is just bullshit.

Part 4: God gave his only son on the cross, to give you “Free Will” to worship him or not it is your choice. God will guild you and teach you, but he will not make your choices for you. Do not blame God or the lack of God for the actions of others, its called taking responseablity for you own actions.

CiscoWes re

“This video makes an erroneous conclusion that if we don’t allow God in the schools, God must have allowed us to not allow Him (?) in the schools.”

You seem to be suffering from some cognitive dissonance here. What the video says is god doesn’t exist.

As for “god’s word” I presume you are referring to biblical content, in which case somebody has been in serious breach of copyright–or plagiarism, (of published works of fiction, no less)

Your video was interesting and thought-provoking, however failed to prove that you sense of thinking is any better or more logical than Christianity, Judaism, Islam or any other form of Religion. In fact, by your very logic, it is impossible to proof or disproof the existence of a greater being. If God is truly God, then can he not transcend the extents of the human mind? Can there be no middle path which we have yet to understand?

There is real hope available to everyone. Jesus Christ paid the penalty of sin by shedding his blood on the cross. We can now be redeemed, saved, forgiven and spend eternity in heaven where there is no more sorrow and no more pain. We will all face eternity one day. It is better to have faith when that day comes.

“Jesus Christ paid the penalty of sin by shedding his blood on the cross”
Okay let me see if I understand this correctly. God incarnated himself as a man for the express purpose of having himself nailed to a cross thereby wiping out the sins of mankind? How does that work exactly? Sorry but it seems somewhat ludicrous to me.

God honors our choices “…Let us make man in our image… let them have dominion…” Neither is God a mindless robot. Man’s choices yield Christ’s sacrifice. Dogma in liberal arts? Consider astronomy physics archeology; with the kernel of Truth found therein also read Genesis Revelation John Hebrews. Can’t read The Bible? Why? Be a rebel, truly embrace diversity,hug a Christian; seek God and be far from alone. Great minds express honest doubt- Truth revealed changes eternally.

Yes, Jesus is the God man incarnate, the creator of the heavens and earth. Nobody can fathom Him! And yet he created you, me, everybody and longs to have a relationship with you. His shed blood made that possible. It is better to take a leap of faith, eternity is too important to not.

There is nothing moral or ethical about murdering an innocent in place of the guilty. As a system of justice, it also sucks. The “Jesus died for your sins” myth is simply a sophisticated version of animal sacrifice. Nothing more. The dying, rising messiah has been a religious theme for over 6000 years, well before JC arrived on the scene.

“The dying, rising messiah has been a religious theme for over 6000 years, well before JC arrived on the scene.”

well said polateq25. this should be stated every time when talking to believers of the jeebus myth. they are so unaware of jeebuses true ‘pagen’ sun god origins, and that he never existed.

There are MAJOR areas of error in you thinking. You are not allowed by the laws of logic to talk about evil.
#1: Evil things imply that there are things that are good.
#2: Good things imply that there should be something more good than something else.
#3: It is an infinite regress (which is impossible) unless we arrive at something ultimately good.
#4: An atheist must deny the existence of something ultimately good in order to be an atheist.
Conclusion: An atheist must deny good and evil.

1. why would an infinite regress be impossible? One could say the same thing about an infinite being.
2. would it not also be impossible to define something as “ultimately good”?
Why must an atheist deny the existence of something ultimately good in order to be an atheist? #4 implies that the “ultimate good” is God. Now which religion’s God is the utimate good?

“An atheist must deny good and evil.”

Your non sequiturs are simply appalling Chad. Concepts of good and evil are social constructs, as is crime for example. What you are really positing is that belief in an invisible man in the sky gives you a monopoly on morality. Try Philosophy 101 starting with Socrates.

Great video, only two things I can find wrong with it: 1. The epcurian argument is a good argument against the biblcal/koranic god, but not against the concept of god as a whole. Still, I suppose this video wasn’t necissarily automatically atheist. The second was the use of the word “faith” by the professor, I think the term “faith” is basically belief without proof or “making shit up and hoping”. He shold have said “trust”

great points. Howeer concider this, some people can not be in control of their own lives, as the guy who shot everyone shows us. Some people need to let someone control them – relegion. Be relegious if you want, but do not try and force your opinion upon others. Have you concidered that you are forceing your athiest opinion on others? Telling them not to believe.

Did the people who produced the video, “The Day They Kicked God Out Of The Schools” forget about the Nickel Mines tragedy?

On October 2, 2006, a gunman entered the one-room Amish schoolhouse at West Nickel Mines, PA, and barricaded himself inside, imprisoning all the female students, whom he intended to abuse sexually. When the tragedy had played out, he had shot ten of the girls and then killed himself. Five of the girls died, one remains in a semi-comatose state with severe brain injuries.

Romans:1:21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God, or give thanks; but they became futile in their speculations,and their folish heart was darkened. Verse 22: Professing to be wise, they became fools,…Verse 29: being filled with all unrightousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife…(30) slanderers, haters of God, insulent, arogant…(31) unloving, unmerciful;

And by the way I am a Christian! Good for you. I not anti Christian, but I am anti Cristofascist. Attempting to leverage a national tragedy for private gain, is utterly despicable and classic Cristofascist tactics. I’m not an american, but I can see what is happening, you guys need to take care of your great republic.

Read all of this psalm, Psa 14:1 The fool has said in his heart, There is no God! They acted corruptly; they did hatefully in deeds; there is none doing good.
Jehovah looked down from Heaven on the sons of mankind, to see if there were any discerning and seeking God:
they have all turned aside; together they have become filthy; there is none doing good, not even one!

Fervent religiosity is an incurable mental disease, brought about through the process of brainwashing the weak (such as children) into believing that they will suffer eternally if they don’t join the religious cult. It is abusive and manipulative. END IT.

We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.

Bush and Co has already broken your Constitution with avarice, ambition, revenge and delusions of his own grandeur. Iraq’s occupation by America killed 3 times as many Iraqis on the day of the VT killings, and that happens every day in Iraq. Last week was the worst since the occupation by a dominion-crazed US Administration. Why don’t you weep for the Iraqis?

Jedediah Morse:
“To the kindly influence of Christianity we owe that degree of civil freedom, and political and social happiness which mankind now enjoys. . . . Whenever the pillars of Christianity shall be overthrown, our present republican forms of government, and all blessings which flow from them, must fall with them.”

James Madison:

“We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We’ve staked the future of all our political institutions upon our capacity…to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.” [1778 to the General Assembly of the State of Virginia]

Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting “Jesus Christ,” so that it would read “A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;” the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination.

Patrick Henry:
“Orator of the Revolution.”

“It cannot be emphasized too clearly and too often that this nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason, peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here.” [May 1765 Speech to the House of Burgesses]

“God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift from God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, and that His justice cannot sleep forever.” (excerpts are inscribed on the walls of the Jefferson Memorial in the nations capital)

George Washington”s farwell address

“Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens. The mere politician, equally with the pious man, ought to respect and to cherish them.”


Thomas Paine:
” It has been the error of the schools to teach astronomy, and all the other sciences, and subjects of natural philosophy, as accomplishments only; whereas they should be taught theologically, or with reference to the Being who is the author of them: for all the principles of science are of divine origin. Man cannot make, or invent, or contrive principles: he can only discover them; and he ought to look through the discovery to the Author.”

During his inauguration, Washington took the oath as prescribed by the Constitution but added several religious components to that official ceremony. Before taking his oath of office, he summoned a Bible on which to take the oath, added the words “So help me God!” to the end of the oath, then leaned over and kissed the Bible.

Benjamin Franklin:
” God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel” –Constitutional Convention of 1787

That might well be the case, however your posts seem to suggest you have either not understood the purpose of this video- a resonse to vile, cowardly, opportunistic drivel, or you choose to ignore the purpose to push your own agenda in what could be considerered the wrong forum.

I didn’t see any evidence in THIS video of the killer being portrayed as a victim, so your generalization does not apply here. If americanfamily had shown some compassion and tact with their video, atheists and many Christians in this forum might not be “up in fangs” as you so eloquently put it.

At the Constitutional Convention of 1787, James Madison proposed the plan to divide the central government into three branches. He discovered this model of government from the Perfect Governor, as he read Isaiah 33:22;
“For the LORD is our judge,
the LORD is our lawgiver,
the LORD is our king;
He will save us.”

Thomas Paine:
” The evil that has resulted from the error of the schools, in teaching natural philosophy as an accomplishment only, has been that of generating in the pupils a species of atheism. Instead of looking through the works of creation to the Creator himself,

they stop short, and employ the knowledge they acquire to create doubts of his existence. They labour with studied ingenuity to ascribe every thing they behold to innate properties of matter, and jump over all the rest by saying, that matter is eternal.” “The Existence of God–1810”

I find it absolutely disgusting that whoever produced the original “The day they kicked God out of the Schools” video is actually trying to use the atrocities that occurred at Virginia Tech to push his/her/their own agenda. All they’re doing is using the blood of the fallen as glitter to sex up their stupid advertisement.

Believe whatever you want, but show some bloody respect.

A well articulated rebuttal that misses the point entirely and attempts to use sarcasm and rhetoric to hide his ignorance of the foundational theologies of the Christian faith. Do not be persuaded by any man – historical or alive today. Pick up the bible and read it for yourself. Make up your own mind.

“Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived” I.Asimov. And while you are reading Revelations (as polateq25 suggests), please remember the Isle of Patmos was then, and still is, full of hallucenogenic mushrooms, very near “John’s” cave, I believe.

An excellent response to the disgusting religious video known as “The Day God was taken out of school” or whatever it’s called. While the other video pieced together random events, each having little or nothing to do with the last topic, your video is brilliantly made and argued.

God honors our choices “…Let us make man in our image… let them have dominion…” Neither is God a mindless robot. Man’s choices yield Christ’s sacrifice. Dogma in liberal arts? Consider astronomy physics archeology; with the kernel of Truth found therein also read Genesis Revelation John Hebrews. Can’t read The Bible? Why? Be a rebel, truly embrace diversity,hug a Christian; seek God and be far from alone. Great minds express honest doubt- Truth revealed changes eternally.

It is Christian …no doubt you have not studied the Holy Bible…during my 50+ years here on earth, I have watched many places boot out GOD and now were seeing what happens in places where GOD is not allowed. I don’t see why people would side with someone that says he does not believe in GOD but in his people. People are capable of horrible acts, truly having faith in and loving FATHER GOD only brings about peace and love

You are correct, it probably is Christian, but not “compassionate”, which is something I was under the (false?) impression was something Christians pride themselves in…I DO know many compassionate Christians, americanfamily and their ilk do NOT qualify as compassionate human beings.

Sweetie, Christianity is not about compassion alone, it’s about TRUTH but when I think about truth it brings about compassion, for if I didn’t have compassion I wouldn’t care if I tell you the truth. Sometimes truth hurts but if we love we must tell the truth. This is true Christianity and compassion, a true Christian does not candy coat GOD.

They know that this life is their one go at it. Their lack of hope arises from the way previous generations have pillaged their world and left it destitute of the very ecological infrastructure that would ensure their and their children’s survival. Nothing whatever to do with a ‘higher power’. They know what is right and don’t have to be told by some sky fairy believer.

I see the hand of satan controlling this man like a puppet. The first thing satan tried to get people to believe was – he doesn’t exist – the next was to make people look at things like there normal – murders, rape, porn, and you should know the rest. Well thats not normal, anyone that believes in FATHER GOD should read the HOLY BIBLE and it tells us that we are to put HIM first in every thing and if we don’t we will deal with the consequences and it’s happening.

Just so you know, when the Bible talks about God “hardening Pharaoh’s heart” it also says, “Pharoah hardened his heart.” The ancient Hebrews attributed everything to God, even the free actions of men. When God “hardened Pharaoh’s heart,” according to the context, we ought to take that to mean, “God allowed Pharaoh to harden his heart.”

Perhaps the original video message could have been done better, but isn’t the message valid? like it or not. Attacking the messenger adds what? I find detailed verifiable undeniable evidence in publicly available facts gathered on the performance of our public schools; and it is ugly. Since God is/was no longer welcome in our public schools every health/success indicatior has rapidly and steadily declined. Yes, a Godless school is, according to the mass media, a hell of a place to be.

Conversely, the same evidence for Christian schools is the exact opposite. ? hmmm. Could it be undeniable? Any place that is Godless is a hell of a place to be. All intellectual or religious crap aside, our current history bears this Truth out. We reap what we sow. Sow to the wind, reap the whirlwind. There are those who refuse to get it and are bigoted to the bitter end.

As a Christian who purposes to follow Christ Jesus, I must fervently pray for us all – those who agree and those who cannot. The flesh truly wars against the spirit. Guess who wins these type of conflicts? You, me, them, God? Based on what i see if it were only what we’ve discussed, I would choose God (even though it herein seems somewhat a politically incorrect and unpopular *choice* 🙂 Seek God and He will be found.

Never said nor implied that “religious schools” were perfected only that the overall performance and behavior records are rapidly going in opposite directions. And the schools where God is not welcome appear to be going downward despite ever increasing investments of other than God fearing respect. Care to address why this is so or will you continue to dodge the Truth?

ONECHILDOFGOD says: “I see the hand of satan controlling this man like a puppet”
Well then..why does not your loving God take control over and free this man from satan? If I were an “all-loving” god, and my (equally all-powerful?) nemesis took control of one of my creatures. I certainly would. Maybe your god is not what he is cracked up to be.

craposo you caused me to think this; No matter how well intentioned, if i try to create God in man’s image or with the human intellect then there must be gross error in my logic. That would not be God. We as humans are obviously error prone and therefore created that way on purpose.

That fact in my estimation points to a loving Creator. The fact that we can’t seem to find happiness and contentment in and of ourselves alone in this earthly existence points to being created for another purpose. Further it points to a Creator who has a plan for good and not for evil to offer us a known future and a sure hope.

Life is afterall a journey full of right or wrong choices with both immediate and eternal results. In our core being we know the differences. I hope and pray you will choose life. This is all for me today. Thank you all for your thoughts and the lively discussions. I may not believe the same way some of you currently do but I value you and hope the very best in your life and journey.

Please don’t say we. If <you> can’t seem to find happiness and contentment without a god, that’s fine, but there are plenty of us who get along just fine without one. I’ve even willing to bet that we’re happier, more content people simply because we do not feel the overwhelming sense of dependency that you do.

Truly what is it that makes you all happier and more content than you imagine I am not? I am not for religion either. Religion is of humans. I am for God. And that I assure is freeing in a way that I hope you ultimately experience. Even so, it is a good and honest point you raise. How many of “you” or “us” are there approximately?

Yep. Just keep talking people, Christian Compassion at it’s most reality detached. Thanks for being such a caricature, that it practically defies parody, and thanks for the comment hits. You’ve ensured that far more innocent minds will see, and be mislead by my satanic message. You too have been drawn into our devilish web and becomes Satans little helpers. Gods gonna be so PISSED.

If chow had gone to Church regularly he would have been TEMPERED by the holy spirit. This video is a pathetic joke and as far as a resolution to your conflict, that is even worse. JESUS is the answer, the way the truth and the light. You are working by knowledge or by being fooled for the devil. This act was NOT of God but by MAN.

My favorite bit was the end, your very human voice, filled with compassion and acceptance of both the positive and negative aspects of reality reciting the deeply human words of the atheist VT professor.

Hey, if it was in my power, I would make you an honorary Christian, because you have embraced the so-called Christian ideals better than the maker of the vid to which you are responding.

This woman has seen the truth and I can never deny what I have seen and felt. My heart breaks when I see so many so blind. I was myself once, let yourself get in a life and death situation and a wise person better hope they know enough about GOD to call out to him because satan won’t be there and a human can only do so much.I am already honored, my FATHER IN HEAVEN AND EARTH has honored me by calling me his own.

ONECHILDOFGOD wrote, “I see the hand of satan controlling this man like a puppet.”

Get real, bud. Provide evidence and proof that Satan exists, and if so, that this video was made at his insistence. And critics of strong atheism wonder why atheists are so ‘mean’ as to refer to some Christians as nut cases and fruit jobs?

It is just as I posted…he wants people to believe he doesn’t exist…he’s got you fooled,do you not know the difference between good and evil? Do you know where the two come from or are you so blind? Can you prove he doesn’t? Bottom line, people will follow the god they desire to worship be it FATHER GOD or satan.

No God…No Purpose. No Telos. Anything goes. Even Rationalists like Immanual Kant do not deny that. Postmodern Irrationality is gaining steam due the failure or pure reason to provide any purpose – thus the existential leap and need to validate, or self authenticate your existance. Cho was the true superman. He made his own values. He created his own universe.

An infinite, personal God is the ONLY basis for rationality.

Logicel, I beleive the books i mentioned earlier represent a strong case in the way you mention. Please consider reading them. You will not be disappointed. In fact, I am led to provide copies for you free of charge if you are inclined to give them a read.

See, I have to say that while the original video is disgusting (or humorous), it is misguided to apply logical reasoning to religion (religion, by definition, has to exist free of science or logical reasoning).
There are many possible answers to the questions of the The problem of human suffering, the conflict of good and evil, etc., but I’m not going to get into that now.
Overall I agree with the overall message of your video: We are responsible for our own actions and destinies.

Why should religion be exempt from similar measures of logical reasoning and evidential proof that all other bodies of knowledge are? Religion needs the fresh blast of critical thinking for it to have any meaning or use for humanity. And under the penetration of critical thinking, religion falls short. Is that why it should be exempt, to spare the feelings of addicted users of religious substances and encourage them never to break the habit?

Belief in the supernatural can not be tested scientifically. Religion denotes belief in a supernatural being, and a supernatural entity can not be subject to the boundaries of the natural world. As science attempts to explain the natural world, it can not be used to prove or disprove the existence of a supernatural being. As for logic, it is possible to use logic to make philosophical arguments for or against religion they remain just this: philosophical ideas with no true scientific weight.

If your god has (or has had) any meaningful effect on this universe we live in (i.e. creating the universe, the Earth, the Sun, and life, or answering prayers, etc.), then god is a measurable effect that is within the boundaries of science. If your god does not have any of these effects on our universe, then he clearly is unnecessary and does not deserve anyones time, or the more logical explanation being that he doesn’t exist at all.

What about the concept of an all knowing entity who is everything, knows everything, can see all that is, ever was and ever will be? I find that pretty fascinating. The fact that you don’t neccessarily share my interest does not mean that my views are nonsense. You may see such a concept as nonsense, however while I respect your views I do not share them. For us to argue would be uneccessary and fruitless, so I would prefer if we could simply agree to disagree.

Doesn’t take much to fascinate you then, does it? Fascination does not a reality make, I assure you. Views are views are views, not a reality. I, for one, do not believe that you respect Logicel’s ‘views’ for one minute. But you are right, discussion is fruitless with people who cannot open their minds, who know nothing about evidence, the testability of hypotheses, the reliability of repeated results and the development of an hypothesis to a scientific theory.

Oh, how convenient that religious belief cannot be tested in such a way which would provide enough evidence to embrace the belief in question without needing faith to believe. Sounds suspicious to me, as if someone is peddling a bunch of ridiculous tripe.

Recently, I’ve read several books, best sellers, by nobel prize winning author(s). These books should qualify as fresh blasts of critical thinking. Some are by former long time Atheistic but world class critical thinkers(e.g. Lee Strobel; Josh McDowell; C.S. Lewis; Derek Prince). Lee’s book for example takes the most esteemed atheistic authors of all time and jounalistically examines others viewpoints for contrast.

If you’ve read these and find fault with their information I would be very interested in your thoughts. I was surprised to find the books treat religion or more precisely God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as NOT exempt from similar measures of logical reasoning and evidential proof that all other bodies of knowledge are subject to. And after reading them open mindedly; the other bodies of knowledge fall short; see if you disagree.

While I find the AFA video reprehensible I find this “rebuttal” equally offensive. The atheist writer
is angry (as most atheists are) and offers no real answers to the question of evil, and therefore, no solace to its victims or to anyone else!

Anger is fine in a healthy person–anger at injustice helps humanity to find solutions. The cure–for some diseases–was discovered because scientists and doctors were angered at the loss of their children/loved ones.

Anger expressed by someone who is sick mentally/emotionally like Cho is dangerous. So, please do not rule out anger as having the potential to result in a positive outcome because it has historically motivated humans to find solutions to pressing problems.

I have never known a religiouis person who didn’t try to emasculate my views with illogic, cant and ‘belief’ as though I would turn on a dime and believe in sky gods. I am utterly without respect for such ridiculous beliefs. Health has more to do with keeping your mind open, but not so open your brains fall out and become subsumed with fantasy.

While I recognise the mertis of this video, the truth is, none of us actually has any control over our lives. Regardless of how well you live your life, how spotless you think your conscience and actions are, you cannot stop the man down the street from shooting you or beating you up, while you were on your way to the grocery store. The only answer is an external, unifying force that guides everyone as a collective- this is the only way to guarantee progress.

If God is wholly good, all knowing, and all powerful, then he would have prevented this pointless murder at VT. Now the religious mind must come to terms with this and decide which of those 3 traits God lacks. Or, if a person is ready to grow up, throw away the silly concept of the invisible man in the sky.

Don’t be silly. People are responsible for their own decisions. Those people at V-Tech are dead for the same reasons that lives are being saved. There are doctors, and there are serial killers. Don’t blame God for something somebody else CHOSE to do. God has given us all free will. It’s not His fault if people decide to abuse it.

You completely have failed to understand my argument. God would have prevented the pointless killing if he could. He didn’t, so we have to come to terms with the aforementioned traits. As for the free will rebuttal it does not in any way address my argument. So you are saying God gave us complete free-will without any restrictions and he doesn’t intervene to prevent pointless and innocent suffering. If someone comes in to a family’s home and is about to brutally –

murder the family’s baby in front of the parents, the parents will of course intervene to prevent the horrible act. Thus, God is simply watching the pointless and innocent suffering and choosing not to intervene (which we can assume would have had a positive reaction). If God exists and possesses the 3 traits I mentioned, then he is a sadist watching his little creations destroy each other.

This presupposes that this earthly life is all there is for each individual. What if you are incorrect? The eternity concept, if true, makes a human life span, “premature” death or not, seem like a miniscule speck compared to eternity. One out of one humans will die a physical death. There is abundant and reliable evidence that Christ died and rose again to eternal life. Back to what is this life for?

Well no, I did not intend to even remotely imply that! Yes they are a big deal, more so to God. Illogical statments such as God “choosing not to intervene” is what i am trying to discuss. It is similar to the statement of “Can God make a stone He could not lift?” or “Could God create us with free will AND control us like robots? Why would He?

God has to honor our choices but He is able to intervene and does. But He is not limited by our actions however horrific or sick. Christ died for our sins so we could live *Eternally* and that would be without evil and horrendous events due to our wrong choices or those of others. Life is about making choices; life is brief; eternity is not.

Life is very brief; make the most of it and live it to the best of your ability. God and intervention? What a load of crock! Lots of mental manipulation to you. What a waste of your life. Tell me, what is ‘eternity’? How do you envisage that, what does it mean? More fantastical wordplay? More clouds? Why does “God” have to honour our choices, if he is the control freak that your Babble describes him as?

Reliable evidence? Where’s your evidence honey? Christ rose from the dead? Let’s throw out human life and death and supplant it with a fantasy. Where’s your evidence? A few charlatans who wanted to build on the rock that was Peter? Rock = thick as two bricks. Even your Saviour alluded to his mental disability.

The believers on this site must ask themselves some serious questions like:
– if God is omnipotent and omniscient, how could God possibly be “kicked out” of anywhere?
– why didn’t God intervene to stop this nightmare from happening in the first place? Did all those people deserve to die? If you believe that, you might need psychiatric attention!

God can’t be kicked out of anywhere. And He didn’t prevent the killings for the same reason He won’t stop you from brushing your teeth. And those people did not deserve to die that way. We are granted free will, that we may build good character and make the right decisions. The shooter abused this right, and caused harm to many. Don’t forget, there was no discrimination here. Many of the students were (and are) believers, too.

The believers on this site must ask themselves some serious questions like:
– if God is omnipotent and omniscient, how could God possibly be “kicked out” of anywhere?
– why didn’t God intervene to stop this nightmare from happening in the first place? Did all those people deserve to die? If you believe that, you might need psychiatric attention!

I can’t stop laughing at this pitiful attempt to bash faith in God. Thanks for the glowing comments on Atheists who it turns out are the most successful murderers of all time. Yes, Pol Pot, Mao and Stalin took over nations, outlawed religion and proceeded to murder TENS OF MILLIONS of their own people. Each was an Atheist. Can’t wait till we get our own atheist leader!

I don’t find it amusing at all! It scares me that people are on this site with serious questions about believers and God, and all you say is that you laugh in a situation like this. Please offer more help to those who are suffering now. Try mentioning the chance for eternal life, rather than mentioning more death.

Dogma, whether it is secular or religious, needs to be the focus as the uncritical and unquestioning embracing dogma is what causes egregious problems.

It is unknown how many atheists hold public office in America. Rep. Stark just popped open the door from his atheist closet recently. However, I do accept that the ‘GENTLEman’ currently sitting in the Oval Office is a Christian, though he certainly is not acting like one!!!

there r some pple who actually believe the things you mentioned in your arguments but it doesn’t necessarily follow that all religious people believe in it as well.FYI,most of us are aware that we are all entitled & responsible to our own actions.The things you mentioned are actually a characteristics of “religious extremism” ¬ everybody are like that.

Religious extremism is fed by moderates who do not focus on the dangers of non-evidential faith-based beliefs. Perhaps some can do both, be rational and also irrationally embrace supernatural beliefs, but there have always been these pesky believers that fail the moderation test. The problem is not the extremists, the problem is regarding belief in belief as not being dangerous.

In regard to the core topic,

The selling point of the ‘Removal of God’ video was this: God is a control. That control was not use. Lets put it back.

Even the premise of the video admits that they would be using ‘God’ as a control.

I respect faith confessed by those based on purely subjective feeling – as thats the only true proof that can be held by an individual, but using your God as a ‘control’? Using God as a TOOL?


It boils down to faith, If there is a God and you chose not to embrace him, then your screwed, if you did well, it’s heaven for you, and I think for me, I would choose to believe in God, how about we praise God that 300 did not die that day instead of 32 and the message is LOVE THE SICK and embrace them or their sickness can turn into death for many

You are invoking the very feeble Pascal’s Wager–if God turns are not to be yours–there are quite a few floating about this planet apparently, then you are the one that is screwed. Google Atheist wager and see that atheists are on the winning side.

I prefer not to wager with “my” soul,this is an excuse made by a person unwilling to admit that they have a soul, you are quite a gambler to wager your very soul. Besides there are a lot of “good” people in this world all of which have no hope, preach hope not apathy my friend

the V.T. shootings were only avoidable for those who had the absolute capability to Love this individual when he needed it most even when he seemed crazy, the help he needed was maybe protecting him from himself or others this is not for me to figure out I was not there. Does it mean that anyone should have or could have done anything to stop this, NO. But if one person knew the good they should have done, and did not, that transgression is what caused this situation

but I think most everyone will search many days of this life trying to find meaning beyond that, thank GOD for the hope that springs eternal, without that V.T. Shootings would happen every day all day every moment until we were all gone. Faith, Hope and Love is all we have !

That’s not true at all. God loves us all very much. Our size isn’t what’s important to Him. Look at the detail put into us and the world we inhabit! The only reason it’s so terrible is because people choose war over peace. And, from a Christian perspective, we are God’s crowning glory in all of His creation. Don’t think so little of yourself! John 3:16….

This discussion has truly made me worry about the state of the hearts of our nation. Some on this response post have asked for proof of God’s existance…that lets me know that you can’t see the beauty of His Creation all around you. That Creation includes you.

Whether you believe in Him or not, He still loves you because you are His “fearfully and wonderfully made” creation. People do bad things, awful things, deplorable things… yet God is still there. He has given us free will to CHOOSE His way or another way and sadly…according to many on this post have chosen the other way. God promised us that He would always be there for us in times of joy and sadness. Unfortunately, times of devastation have come along as well.

Neither Christians nor pagans are free from times of pain and anguish, but as Christians we KNOW that God is our refuge. I hope that all of you who don’t know Him, will find Him. God is a gentleman and will not force Himself into your heart, but He will be there when and if you ever decide to open the door.

It seems for the moment that the various groups of believers in one thing or another are stuck with the implicit question to each other “How can you be so sure, so certain?”. What could be more important? This is a good discussion overall and I will be back to reread and contemplate the action. Christians and not, why not get those books that some say don’t exist.

Proof of God’s existance is that you ARE. Proof of God is the majesty of His Creation. There is more proof than there is proof that He isn’t. Read it from an atheists point of view if you would like in Lee Strobel’s Case for Christ. Look in Scripture.
I hope you find it if you haven’t already.

Lbennett75, what kind of refuge could god possibly offer? I would rather receive comforting words from living, breathing things that I can hold and cry on the shoulders of than some larger than life divine entity whose sole purpose is to judge whether we are worthy or not.

Religious views strike me as being full of SPECULATIVE reasoning.

If some empirical result does not mesh with their view of the world they speculate the INTENT of God. God’s great plan, or some such thing. Its speculative B.S.

Why is it so hard to say, “I don’t know”

Religion tries to be a know it all.

I believe I understand your point about I don’t know. Perhaps what is Truth can be confirmed. When you are able, consider trying this: “God if you are real and who the Bible says You are, please reveal yourself undeniably to me.” Say it and mean it and He will.

Did not intend to anger you. I am speaking from personal experience and have read the Bible many times. What attitude you read it with is important. Try what I suggested earlier if you dare. I’d be interested to know the outcome you experience. OBTW, God has a sense of humor as well as other incredible attributes — many are mentioned in the Bible.

God has the chance to prove his existence to me every second of every day if he exists, but he chooses not even to give the slightest hint (and even lets science run rampant!). But of course, I am only one atheist among millions, so he should probably be a bit more ambitious and reveal himself to everyone at once. Now that would surely be proof enough! As for the attitude I read the Bible with, I assume you mean read it with completely gullibility and credulity.

Gymnopedie55 and Logicel, I am truly sorry if I have caused you, or others anger, offense or whatever the correct word might be, toward me or others. Please forgive me if that is the case.I admire and respect that you are discussing the most important issues of life.

Well done! If you were a non-profit organization, I would send you a donation. Unfortunately, we, if I may be so bold as to classify you with my beliefs, are only a small minority of rational reasoning people in a sea of religious people world-wide that refuse to take responsibility for themselves or anything that happens in their lives!

Thanks for the video.

Steve in Chicago, Illinois USA

Parents tell their kids to look both ways before crossing the street. Isn’t it easier to just cross the street without looking? If we’re not living the commandments God has given us, we are left unprotected and suffer the natural consequences. The video to which you have offered this rebuttal is simply stating that we have stopped abiding by His commandments and so have left ourselves unprotected. We will suffer the consequences. Hence…”we reap what we sow.”

After some super duper serious cherry picking, the only valuable moral bit to be weeded out in the bible is the Golden rule which had evolved in society as a means for group survival before the writing of the Bible. As George Carlin in his comic act, The Ten Commandments, pointed out, most of them are superfluous and can be boiled down to only three.

You guys need to calm down – don’t take it so personal. Why you have to drag the religious debate into is beyond me, and that goes for both sides of the debate. Yes, I have seen the tapes made by the shooter. Whether or not organized religion exists is not an issue here, because he would have found another self-martyring cause to associate his anti-social tendencies with. You guys need to chill, and quit feeding into this endless circular debate.

Sorry bjduerst, the original video in a most disgraceful way, leveraging the tragedy, claims the reason for the massacre is that we have abandoned the invisible man in the sky. Free speech and all that you know–we are entitled to protest garbage when we see it.

An excellent rebuttal to the viciously manipulative original video. The AFA video is a shameless attempt to promote fear at a time when perfectly normal people are reeling with the destructive capacity of a very damaged young man with weapons in his possession. God and religion has absolutely zilch to do what happened at VT. To use such an horrific situation to try and sell God is a morally bankrupt act and the AFA deserves about as much respect as a pile of garbage.

Why would you even comment on something that know absolutly nothing about. You say you have no faith in God, but you have faith in your people. Look in the mirror, people are responsible for what happened in virginia, and every other school shooting. You ask if God was able to stop this from happening. Let me answer that for you, yes he is. before you ask why didn’t he, i’ll answer that as well.

You also asked where evil came from. Well you should know that only good things come from God, so common since should tell you that if it is not good it must come from satan. God is not moved by our words, works, deeds, or emotions. He is moved by our faith. Next time you read the Bible to take something out of it to try to use it against it, read a little bit further. God is all knowing, but his will does not always prevail.

“With no hell to worry about, do what you want right?”

I read comments like this often. Honestly, is fear of hell the only reason *you* behave? Is the threat of eternal damnation the only reason *you* can think of to behave ethically? Is a lake of fire the only thing stopping *you* from raping and murdering?

Although, having seen the gunman’s video, he seems to cherish Jesus and Moses quite a bit…

If Gods will always prevailed everybody on this earth would have faith and be saved. But obviously some people are not. The Bible tells us that God gifted us with free will. No other being has been gifted with free will. This means that it is our choice, Not Gods. If we allow God to move through us, He will and believe me he does. We must do as Gods word says. Walk by faith and not by sight.

The Bible tells us, “Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul propereth” (3 john 2). Think again before you say I have failed to prove anything. In Gods word there are no contradictions. However there was always one character in the Bible that tried to say the same thing you are, and with the words you say you kinda remind me of him, his name was satan.

That quote does not make sense at the end, how can anyone be an antiest? To be an athiest don’t you need to be able to deny that there is a God? In order to deny (refuse to recognize) something, though, you must accept that there is something actually there to regect. If you truely thought there was nothing, then what could you object to?

I didn’t finish your video because I had a question for you. Why to you assume that death is the worst thing to happen. If this is not something you assume then maybe it is just that you view death as a bad thing. I hope you try to contact me and help educate me.

why should he save anyone?

lets stand on the platform that God is omnipotent, all-knowing and all-powerful, the real question is…


uhh hm…uh…he doesnt have to. especially with skeptics like you, why prove anything to you?

he has his reasons for everything. you put a sarcastic video with no purpose…you were angered becuase…someone else was angered at the absence of God..

wow…great reasoning…

believing in superstitious belief systems isnt about reason or rationality or pragmaticism or empricism, its about belieivng in nonsense because according to that nonsense youre supposed to. its impossible to reason with a person that cant separate religious fantasy from reality. they think youre the devil!

Heb 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
There is really little reason to argue with someone that does not have understanding (discernment). Simple put they do not have the ability to comprehend the bigger picture. All of their arguments come from their own desire to push away a God they truly know does exist.

Can you please share your vast experience and wisdom on me,” You quoted the Bible” could use your own incredible wisdom to fascinate us, please oh wise Mr.Polateq25 tell us what will happen to us when we die, and am buried, is this life all there is for us, impart your wisdom on we fools that believe in God.

downtoearth101….. I can use your scriptures and impart to you the wisdom of solomon, who, even Jesus mentions how wise he is, to tell you what happens at death…. Ecc 3:19 Man’s fate is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath [b] ; man has no advantage over the animal. Everything is meaningless.

If you have nothing but what you have spewed so far than, take the freedom you have to express yourself and talk to yourself, unless you can recreate photosynthesis, or recreate a rainbow, or figure out a way to give birth by yourself then it looks a little more complicated then your answer, THERE IS NO GOD !who is the fool ?Use your brain, God gave it to you.

Your personal incredulity aside, the fact is god really isn’t necessary to explain everything. The best position anyone could take is that of a deist, and at that point the progression to an atheist isn’t that profound, in light of our vast scientific knowledge, of which you appear completely ignorant.

polateq25 – great video – thanks for the effort you put into it. Psalm 139:16… according to believers in Yahweh or God as they generically want it referred to, if they really believed their Holy Scriptures they would have to conceed that not only did God not do anything to stop the shooting or any massacre – but he ordains it…..

Yet he failed to prevent it, as he fails to prevent all atrocities. The human police force does a much better job of protecting the innocent, and juggling the “free will”/rights of one group against tohse of another. Flawed humans!!! Yet the all powerful, all knowing, all loving God can’t do better? C’mon ….. snap out of it, you can’t have your cake and eat it. You’ve got to drop something, whats it to be?

Do you realize that we live in a fallen world? I’m just giving you a head’s up bro, God isn’t going to step in and prevent bad things from happening every day because we pushed Him away a long time ago, when Adam and Eve decided God’s Word wasn’t really needed and they could do their own thing. Ever since then we live in a world corrupted by sin, and it’s not gonna get any better until Jesus returns and fixes it IN HIS TIME.

I can appreciate a person getting wrapped up in “deeper thought”. Let me guess you are currently enrolled in a Literature or a Psychology course and are trying to show the grasp you have on this area. Truth is reality. God is Truth. The Truth is what frees us to “open” thinking.

Andy. Your comment that God does not do anything. You are correct when it comes to our personal life….Unless you allow Him to. I can tell you my life was changed from hopelessness and trying to find happiness in every avenue of our culture to a place where I am content and filled with a peace and direction. I can not speak for others but He did do something in my life on a very personal level.

You know what’s funny, but I had probably half a dozen similar mystical experiences that have radically altered my perception of the world. It’s call positive thinking. It is kind of disturbing how religious types attribute their own great mental abilities to something preternatural. Have some faith in yourself, my man!

srbcyouthpastor . what your saying is an admitance god doesnt do anything, other than being the random entity that you have given credit for the changes to your life you made YOURSELF. thats no argument for gods existence. you can get just as much peace, beauty and direction from science and art, as from religion and be rational too as a huge bonus.

Who are they to impose their prayers and doctrines on people with other beliefs ? Religion is a personal choice that cannot be imposed via the educational system. A physical disorder in the gunman’s brain caused this problem ; Not a lack of prayer. After all, these delusional people have been known to claim they were inspired by God to perform violence so prayer would not have improved the situation. Proper mental health assistance is what’s required.

And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD. Joshua 24: 15

Explain this fairytail puffrooster. Is it better than this?

And the Spaghetti monster threw out its noodly appendage and said thus: “verily I say unto you, render to Kraft sauce what is due to Kraft and to HP what is Sauce. For those who dwell in the flood of junk food, it shall be an abomination upon ye.”
(Supersize Me 523.12)

you’re a retard. ‘These and similiar contradictions’ remain unreconciled my foot. Did you look them up on wikipedia or read them in a big, complex looking book all by yourself? Either way, you missed th point. congratulations on being another pseudo intellectual chump convinced of the superiority of his opinions. you’re no better than the original video.


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